Phaedrus — Part 3

[00:00:05]If you wish to reach a good decision on any topic, my boy, there is only one way to begin: [00:00:10]You must first know what the decision is about, or else you are bound to miss your target altogether. [00:00:16]Ordinary people cannot see that they do not know the true nature of a particular subject, but they proceed as if they did; [00:00:25]and because they do not work out an agreement at the start of the inquiry, they wind up as you would expect—in conflict with themselves and each other. [00:00:35]Now you and I had better not let this happen to us, since we criticize it in others.

[00:00:40]Because you and I are about to discuss whether a boy should make friends with a man who loves him rather than with one who does not, [00:00:51]Therefore, we should agree on defining what love is and what effects it has. [00:00:56]That way, we can look back and refer to this definition as we try to find out whether to expect benefit or harm from love. [00:01:06]Now, as everyone plainly knows, love is some kind of desire; [00:01:11]but we also know that even men who are not in love have a desire for what is beautiful.

[00:01:17]So how shall we distinguish between these two--the one who is in love and the one who is not in love? [00:01:22]We must realize that [00:01:38]Sometimes these two are in agreement; but there are times when they quarrel within us, [00:01:43]Sometimes one gaining control, sometimes the other gaining control. [00:01:48]Now when judgment is in control and leads us by reasoning toward what is best,

[00:01:55]that sort of self-control is called ‘being in your right mind’; [00:01:59]but when desire takes command in us and drags us without reasoning toward pleasure, [00:02:04]then its command is known as ‘outrageousness’. [00:02:08]Now outrageousness has as many names as the forms it can take, and these are quite diverse. [00:02:15]Whichever form stands out in a particular case gives its name to the person who has it—

[00:02:21]and that is not a pretty name to be called, not worth earning at all. [00:02:26]For example: [00:02:27]If it is desire for food that overpowers a person’s reasoning about what is best [00:02:33]and suppresses their other desires, it is called gluttony and we give to him the name of: "glutton," [00:02:40]while if it is desire for drink that plays the tyrant and leads the man in that direction, well, we all know what name we’ll call him then!

[00:02:49][Cheers!] [00:02:51]And now it should be clear how to describe someone appropriately in all these other cases: [00:02:56]call that man by that name—sister to the other ones—that derives from the sister of these desires that controls him at that moment. [00:03:06]As for this desire that has led us to say all these things, it should be obvious already, [00:03:11]but I suppose that things said are better understood than things unsaid:

[00:03:16]So here is our definition of "Eros"... [00:03:50]There, my friend Phaedrus, don’t you think, as I do, that I’m in the grip of something divine? [00:03:55]This is certainly an unusual flow of words for you, Socrates. [00:03:59]Then be quiet and listen. [00:04:01]There’s something really divine about this place,

[00:04:04]so don’t be surprised if I’m quite taken by the Nymphs’ madness as I go on with the speech. [00:04:10]I’m on the edge of speaking in dithyrambs as it is. [00:04:13]Very true! [00:04:15]Yes, and you’re the cause of it. But hear me out; the attack may yet be prevented. [00:04:20]That, however, is up to God;

[00:04:22]what we must do is face the boy again in the speech: [00:04:26]All right then, my brave friend, now we have a definition for the subject of our decision; [00:04:32]now we have said what it really is; [00:04:35]so let us keep that in view as we complete our discussion. [00:04:40]What benefit or harm is likely to come from the lover or the non-lover to the boy who gives him favors?

[00:04:49]It is surely necessary that a man who is ruled by desire and is a slave to pleasure [00:04:55]will turn his boy into whatever is most pleasing to himself. [00:04:59]Now a sick man takes pleasure in anything that does not resist him, [00:05:03]but sees anyone who is equal or superior to him as an enemy. [00:05:08]That is why a lover will not willingly put up with a boyfriend who is his equal or his superior,

[00:05:15]but is always working to make the boy he loves weaker and inferior to himself. [00:05:20]Now, the ignorant man is inferior to the wise one, the coward inferior to the brave, [00:05:26]the ineffective speaker to the trained orator, the slow-witted to the quick-witted. [00:05:32]By necessity, a lover will be delighted to find these mental defects and more, [00:05:38]whether acquired or innate in his boy;

[00:05:41]and if he does not, he will have to supply them or else lose the pleasure of the moment. [00:05:47]The necessary consequence is that he will be jealous and keep the boy away from the good company of anyone who would make a better man out of him; [00:05:58]and that will cause him a great deal of harm, especially if he keeps him away from what would most improve his mind— [00:06:06]and that, of course, is divine philosophy, [00:06:11]from which it is necessary for a lover to keep his boy away... a great distance away,

[00:06:17]out of fear that the boy will eventually come to look down on him. [00:06:22]He will have to invent other ways, too, of keeping the boy in total ignorance [00:06:26]and therefore in total dependence on himself. [00:06:30]That way, the boy will give his lover the most pleasure, though the harm to himself will be severe. [00:06:39]So it will not be of any use to your intellectual development to have as your mentor and companion a man who is in love.

[00:06:49]Now let’s turn to your physical development. [00:06:52]If a man is bound by necessity to chase pleasure at the expense of the good, [00:06:58]what sort of shape will he want you to be in? [00:07:01]How will he train you, if he is in charge? [00:07:04]You will see that what he wants is someone who is soft, not muscular,

[00:07:08]and not trained in full sunlight but trained in dappled shade— [00:07:12]Instead, he goes for a boy who has known only a soft unmanly style of life, [00:07:18]who makes himself pretty with cosmetics because he has no natural color at all. [00:07:25]There is no point in going on with this description: [00:07:28]it is perfectly obvious what sorts of behavior will follow from this.

[00:07:32]the sort of body a lover wants in his boy is one that will give confidence to the enemy in a war or other great crisis [00:07:40]while causing alarm to his friends, his family, and even to his lovers. [00:07:46]Enough of that; the point is obvious. [00:07:49]Our next topic will be the benefit or harm to your possessions that will come from a lover’s care and company. [00:07:56]Everyone knows the answer, especially a lover:

[00:08:00]His first wish will be for a boy who has lost his dearest, kindliest, and godliest possessions— [00:08:07]Namely, his mother, his father, and other close relatives. [00:08:11]He would be happy to see the boy deprived of them, [00:08:15]since he would expect them either to block him from the sweet pleasure of the boy’s company [00:08:20]or to criticize him severely for taking it.

[00:08:23]What is more, a lover would think any money or other wealth the boy owns [00:08:28]would only make him harder to snare and, once snared, harder to handle. [00:08:33]It follows by absolute necessity that wealth in a boyfriend will cause his lover to envy him, [00:08:40]while his poverty will be a delight. [00:08:43]Furthermore, he will wish for the boy to stay wifeless, childless, and homeless for as long as possible,

[00:08:50]since that’s how long he desires to go on plucking his sweet fruit. [00:08:56]There are other troubles in life, of course, but some divinity has mixed them with a dash of immediate pleasure. [00:09:03]A flatterer, for example, may be an awful beast and a dreadful nuisance, [00:09:08]but nature makes flattery rather pleasant by mixing in a little culture with its words. [00:09:14]So it is also with a mistress—for all the harm we accuse her of causing—

[00:09:19]and with many other creatures of that character, and their callings: [00:09:25]at least they are delightful company for a day. [00:09:29]But besides being harmful to his boyfriend, a lover is simply disgusting to spend the day with. [00:09:35]“Youth delights youth,” as the old proverb goes— [00:09:38]because, I suppose, friendship grows from similarity, as boys of the same age chase after the same kinds of pleasures.

[00:09:46]But you can even have too much of people your own age. [00:09:49]Besides, as they say, it is miserable for anyone to be forced into anything by necessity— [00:09:56]and this (to say nothing of the age difference) is most true for the boy of his lover. [00:10:03]The older man clings to the younger day and night, never willing to leave him alone, [00:10:10]driven by necessity and goaded on by the

[00:10:13]Sting that gives him pleasure every time he sees, hears, touches, or perceives his boy in any way at all, [00:10:19]so that he follows him around like a servant, with pleasure. [00:10:25]As for the boy, however, what comfort or pleasure will the lover give to him during all the time they spend together? [00:10:32]Won’t it be disgusting in the extreme to see the face of that older man who’s lost his looks? [00:10:41]And everything that goes with that face—

[00:10:44]Why, it’s even miserable to hear them mentioned, let alone actually have to handle them, as you would constantly be forced to do! [00:10:54]To be watched and guarded suspiciously all the time, with everyone! [00:10:58]To hear praise of yourself that is out of place and excessive! [00:11:02]And then to be falsely accused— [00:11:05]which is unbearable when the man is sober

[00:11:08]and not only unbearable but positively shameful [00:11:11]when he is drunk and lays into you with a pack of wild barefaced insults! [00:11:17]While he is still in love he is harmful and disgusting, [00:11:21]but after his love fades he breaks his trust with you for the future, [00:11:27]in spite of all the promises he has made with all those oaths and entreaties which just barely kept you in a relationship that was troublesome at the time,

[00:11:35]in hope of future benefits. [00:11:38]So, then, by the time he should pay up, [00:11:41]he has made a change and installed a [00:11:48]right-minded reason in place of the madness of love. [00:11:53]The boy does not even realize that his lover is a different man.

[00:11:57]He insists on his reward for past favors [00:12:01]and reminds him of what they had done and said before— [00:12:05]as if he were still talking to the same man! [00:12:08]The lover, however, is so ashamed that he does not dare tell the boy how much he has changed [00:12:14]or that there is no way—

[00:12:17]now that he is in his right mind and under control again— [00:12:20]that he can stand by the promises he had sworn to uphold when he was under that old mindless regime. [00:12:27]He is afraid that if he acted as he had before he would turn out the same and revert to his old self. [00:12:36]So now he is a refugee, fleeing from those old promises on which he must default by necessity; [00:12:43]he, the former lover, has to switch roles and flee, since the coin has fallen the other way,

[00:12:51]while the boy must chase after him, angry and cursing. [00:12:55]All along, he has been completely unaware that he should never have given his favors to a man who was in love— [00:13:03]and who therefore had by necessity lost his mind. [00:13:09]He should much rather have done it for a man who was not in love and had his wits about him. [00:13:15]Otherwise, it follows necessarily that he’d be giving himself to a man who is deceitful,

[00:13:21]irritable, jealous, disgusting, harmful to his property, [00:13:27]harmful to his physical fitness, and absolutely devastating to the cultivation of his soul, [00:13:35]which truly is, and will always be, the most valuable thing to gods and men. [00:13:42]These are the points you should bear in mind, my boy. [00:13:47]You should know that the friendship of a lover arises without any good will at all.

[00:13:53]No, like food, its purpose is to sate hunger. [00:13:58]‘Do wolves love lambs? That’s how lovers befriend a boy!’ [00:14:05]That’s it, Phaedrus. You won’t hear another word from me, and you’ll have to accept this as the end of the speech. [00:14:12]But I thought you were right in the middle— [00:14:16]I thought you were about to speak at the same length about the non-lover,

[00:14:21]to list his good points and argue that it’s better to give one’s favors to him. [00:14:25]So why are you stopping now, Socrates? [00:14:28]Didn’t you notice, my friend, [00:14:30]that even though I am criticizing the lover, I have passed beyond lyric into epic poetry? [00:14:37]What do you suppose will happen to me if I begin to praise his opposite?

[00:14:42]Don’t you realize that the Nymphs to whom you so cleverly exposed me will take complete possession of me? [00:14:49]So I say instead, in a word, that every shortcoming for which we blamed the lover has its contrary advantage, and the non-lover possesses it. [00:14:56]Why make a long speech of it? That’s enough about them both. [00:15:00]This way my story will meet the end it deserves, [00:15:02]and I will cross the river and leave before you make me do something even worse.

[00:15:07]Not yet, Socrates, not until this heat is over. [00:15:11]Don’t you see that it is almost exactly noon, [00:15:13]“straight-up” as they say? [00:15:18]Let’s wait and discuss the speeches, and go as soon as it turns cooler. [00:15:23]You’re really superhuman when it comes to speeches, Phaedrus;

[00:15:26]you’re truly amazing. [00:15:28]I’m sure you’ve brought into being more of the speeches that have been given during your lifetime than anyone else, [00:15:34]whether you composed them yourself or in one way or another forced others to make them; [00:15:39]with the single exception of Simmias the Theban, you are far ahead of the rest. [00:15:43]Even as we speak, I think, you’re managing to cause me to produce yet another one.

[00:15:50]Oh, how wonderful! [00:15:54]But what do you mean? What speech? [00:15:57]My friend, just as I was about to cross the river, the familiar divine sign came to me [00:16:02]which, whenever it occurs, holds me back from something I am about to do. [00:16:07]I thought I heard a voice coming from this very spot,

[00:16:12]forbidding me to leave until I made atonement for some offense against God. [00:16:17]In effect, you see, I am a seer, and though I am not particularly good at it, [00:16:21]Still—just like people who are just barely able to read and write—I am good enough for my own purposes. [00:16:26]I recognize my offense clearly now. [00:16:29]In fact, the soul too, my friend, is itself a sort of seer;

[00:16:34]that’s why, almost from the beginning of my speech, [00:16:37]I was disturbed by a very uneasy feeling, [00:16:41]as Ibycus puts it, that “for offending God, I am honored by men.” [00:16:45]But now I understand exactly what my offense was. [00:16:50]Tell me, what is it?

[00:16:52]Phaedrus, that speech you carried with you here—it was horrible, as horrible as the speech you made me give. [00:17:03]But how could that be? [00:17:05]It was foolish, and close to being impious. [00:17:08]What could be more horrible than that? [00:17:10]Nothing—if, of course, what you say is right.

[00:17:15]Well, then? Don’t you believe that Love is the son of Aphrodite? [00:17:19]Isn’t he one of the gods? [00:17:21]Well, certainly that is what people say. [00:17:24]Well, Lysias certainly doesn’t and neither does your speech, [00:17:28]which you charmed me through your potion into delivering myself.

[00:17:32]But if Love is a god or something divine—which he is— [00:17:37]he can’t be bad in any way; and yet our speeches just now spoke of him as if he were. [00:17:43]That is an offense against Love. [00:17:47]You are a murderer of Love! [00:17:52]And they’ve compounded it with their utterfoolishness in parading their dangerous falsehoods and

[00:17:57]preening themselves over perhaps deceiving a few silly people and coming to be admired by them. [00:18:04]And so, my friend, I must purify myself. [00:18:07]Now for those whose offense lies in telling false stories about matters divine, [00:18:12]there is an ancient rite of purification— [00:18:15]Homer did not know it, but Stesichorus did.

[00:18:19]When he lost his sight for speaking ill of Helen, he did not, like Homer, remain in the dark about the reason why. [00:18:28]On the contrary, true follower of the Muses that he was, he understood it and immediately composed these lines: [00:18:35]There’s no truth to that story: You never sailed that lovely ship, You never reached the tower of Troy. [00:18:41]And as soon as he completed the poem we call the Palinode, he immediately regained his sight. [00:18:49]Now I will prove to be wiser than Homer and Stesichorus to this small extent:

[00:18:57]I will try to offer my Palinode to Love before I am punished for speaking ill of him— [00:19:05]with my head bare, no longer covered in shame. [00:19:10]No words could be sweeter to my ears, Socrates. [00:19:15]You see, my dear Phaedrus, you understand how shameless the speeches were, my own as well as the one in your book. [00:19:24]Suppose a noble and gentle man, who was (or had once been) in love with a boy of similar character,

[00:19:32]were to hear us say that lovers start serious quarrels over trivial reasons and that, [00:19:40]jealous of their beloved, they do him harm— [00:19:43]don’t you think that man would think we had been brought up among the most vulgar of sailors, [00:19:48]totally ignorant of love among the freeborn? [00:19:52]Wouldn’t he most certainly refuse to acknowledge the flaws we attributed to Love?

[00:19:57]Most probably, Socrates. [00:20:00]Well, that man makes me feel ashamed, and [00:20:03]as I’m also afraid of Love himself, [00:20:04]I want to wash out the bitterness of what we’ve heard with a more tasteful speech. [00:20:10]And my advice to Lysias, too,

[00:20:12]is that he write a speech as soon as possible urging one to give similar favors to a lover rather than to a non-lover. [00:20:20]You can be sure he will. [00:20:22]For once you have spoken in praise of the lover, [00:20:26]I will most definitely make Lysias write a speech on the same topic. [00:20:32]I do believe you will, as long as you are who you are.

[00:20:36]Speak on, then, in full confidence. [00:20:40]Where is the boy -- the boy to whom I was speaking? [00:20:43]Let him hear this speech, too. [00:20:45]Otherwise he might be too quick to give his favors to a non-lover. [00:20:49]He is here, always right by your side, whenever you want him.

[00:20:57]You’ll have to understand, beautiful boy, that the previous speech [00:21:01]was by Phaedrus, Pythocles’ son, from Myrrhinus, [00:21:05]while the one I am about to give is by Stesichorus, Euphemus’ son, from Himera. [00:21:12]And here is how the speech should go: [00:21:17]Long speech [stay tuned for part 4!]