Gītā 6-9

04/07/2026 · Tue/Thu 12:00-1:15 PM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This session covered Chapters 3 through 9 of the Bhagavad-Gītā, with the discussion specifically reaching Chapter 4, examining the tension between the contemplative life and the necessity of action. The instructor, Brad Bannon, guided the class through Arjuna’s initial confusion regarding whether knowledge or action is the superior path to the highest good. The discussion emphasized the concept of Karma Yoga, or selfless action performed without attachment to its 'fruits' or outcomes. Students explored how leadership is defined through Lokasaṃgraha—acting for the benefit and holding together of the world. The class also delved into the theological implications of Krishna as an avatar who descends to restore Dharma when Adharma, or injustice, prevails. Comparative perspectives were introduced via the commentaries of Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja, specifically regarding the role of devotion (Bhakti) and the nature of the self. The session concluded by addressing the ethical weight of inaction, noting that in the face of injustice, choosing not to act is itself a consequential decision that can lead to the destruction of the social and moral order.

⚡ Key Takeaways

The path to the supreme good requires a synthesis of knowledge and action, specifically performing one's duty with detachment from the results.
Arjuna’s questions serve as a model for the 'best students,' highlighting that straightforward inquiry is essential for theological understanding.
Lokasaṃgraha identifies the motivation for action as the 'holding together of the world' rather than personal or selfish gain.
Krishna’s role as an avatar is to intervene in the world whenever Dharma (justice) declines and Adharma (injustice) rises.
The concept of Ishta Deva suggests that the divine manifests to individuals in the way they are most receptive to receiving the message.
Inaction in the face of injustice is characterized as a choice with its own moral consequences, rather than a neutral state.
Rāmānuja’s commentary emphasizes that every action should be performed as a selfless offering to God to purify the mind.
Śaṅkara’s non-dualist perspective emphasizes that knowledge and action must be understood as a cluster where understanding prompts correct action.
Sacrifice is redefined from Vedic ritual to a disciplined approach to every action, including eating and breathing, aimed at increasing Dharma.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Breath and Transition

Brad

All righty, how do y'all— let's take a moment to reset and transition. Let's take a breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out. Word?

Student

Word.

1:12

Bhagavad-Gītā Quiz and Commentary Instructions

Brad

All right, a little bit different kind of quiz today. You can absolutely use any notes that are not on a screen. Use the Bhagavad Gītā, use any notes. Anything that's not on a screen, you're good. And it looks like we're missing Alice and Francis. And Max, um, Delaney. Yep, all of you people are absent. ⚠

Student

I can share that.

Brad

Yeah, I can share that.

Student

Sure.

Brad

Do you have a— do you have one? Commentary definitely includes the AI that I gave you. Yeah, absolutely. Bless you. Also, I should have said this earlier, but this covers chapters 3 through 9, so the chapters from last Tuesday and from today, so So if you consulted a commentary for any of those chapters, that's fine. Looks like most folks are done. While you're wrapping up, I just want to say for leadership, I'd really love everybody to take a leadership role twice in this unit, once on the Gospel of Mark, which we have 2 more classes on, and once on the Bhagavad Gītā, which we have 3 classes on counting today. And so, and like I said, that could— you don't have That could include if you were prepared last Tuesday, you can cover that today, or if you were prepared for today's chapters, that's fine, either one. And if you're not, that's fine. We've got 2 more left. So I'm not so concerned that like each group has 2 people. I'm not concerned about the groups. Just want to make sure that Nicholas does one on the Bhagavad Gītā and one on the Mahabharata. On MARC, yeah. ⚠

Brad

And if you're not prepared today, that's okay, because we've got more on both opportunities. Make sense? All right, cool. Go ahead, if you would, and pass them up. Hopefully we've got some folks that are prepared to lead today. I should have been a little bit more explicit about that last Tuesday. So next, I'd like to take a few minutes with your teams just to kind of get your thoughts organized, get everybody talking. As always, please try to stay on topic. And so we're going to try and cover— there's no way we're going to get all the way through from Chapter 3 all the way to Chapter 9. But we did make it up to Chapter 8 in the last class. Class, so hopefully we'll get somewhere in that neighborhood. And so, yeah, so try and organize your thoughts, try and find out, you know, identify some verses from each one of the chapters would be great. If you have like one verse or two from each one of the chapters, that would be perfect. And yeah, go ahead, take a few minutes. All right. ⚠

Brad

It looks like based on these, looks like a lot of folks are ready to bring in some commentaries. I wasn't expecting so many folks to have read a commentary, which is great. Absolutely. Let's dive in. If you're ready. Yeah. So yeah, let's dive into chapter 3. Go through them one by one. I want to start, I'll start. So for Chapter 3, we have a pattern here that doesn't continue for every chapter, but for most of the chapters it does, for many of the chapters it does. And the pattern is basically Arjuna begins the chapter by asking a question, and then Krishna, you know, and then he proceeds to answer the question in a long, complicated way that Arjuna doesn't usually understand. But, you know, he gets enough of it or he gets some of it and then he asks another question. And so I want to point that out as a pattern, but also because one of the things that I emphasized when we were reading the Kaṭha Upaniṣad, the reason that Yama is so excited to have such an excellent student in Naciketas is because of the questions he asks, right? ⚠

17:11

Theology of Knowledge (Jñāna) and Action (Karma) in Chapter 3

Brad

So this is a consistent pattern that the best students are the ones that ask the best questions. And in Arjuna's case, Arjuna is not, you'd say, it's not like the coldest beer in the fridge. And so he asked very just blunt, straightforward, like, you know, just, you know, very straightforward questions, very plain questions, which is a good thing. And Zaehner, I feel like between all of the translators, Zaehner tends to translate the questions, Arjuna's questions, pretty well, pretty straightforward. So let's just look at the first two verses of the chapter. Arjuna said, right, if you think that the contemplative life of the soul is a loftier course than the performance of acts, then why do you command me to do this cruel deed? You confuse my soul and my intellect, or so it seems, with distinctly muddled words. Just tell me with authority the one simple way whereby I can attain the better part. In other words, right, or the AI version, with seemingly mixed speech, you confuse my understanding. Therefore, having determined it, tell me the one thing which I may attain the highest good. Right? Is it action? ⚠

Brad

On the one hand, you're saying, you know, it's the path of knowledge that is more valuable than the path of action. But then you're also telling me to perform action, right? So which one is it? Is it knowledge or is it action? Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward question, right? I've been binge-watching Rick and Morty, trying to watch all, you know, 8 seasons in anticipation of season 9 coming out on May 24th at 11 PM. But, and in the Meeseeks and Destroy episodes, right? Jerry wants to take two swings off of his golf swing and he's like, you know, Mr. Meeseeks is like, you know, you've gotta square your shoulders and you've gotta relax. And he's like, which is it? Is it relax or is it, you know, square your shoulders? Mr. Meeseeks says, you gotta do both, Jerry, right? So you gotta do both, like knowledge and, Action is the point. Cool, all right, word. Anybody have something other than Rick and Morty to bring in here? Or, I mean, Rick and Morty's also welcome. Yeah, Isabella. ⚠

Student

I guess to start to answer that question, I noticed in the first 319, I think it was the Stella Miller translation, it was saying that you should fully perform with detachment in the action you do. And then when you perform with detachment, that's when you achieve supreme good. So I guess it's not— at least how I interpret it was it wasn't just knowledge or action. It's a combination of both. And you have to make sure that whatever you're doing, you're not attached to the outcome. So I guess with this initial question of why should I battle, why should I do this, and that's terrible, it's not actually about it's not terrible because you shouldn't be detached from it. You shouldn't look at it like that. Just do what your duty is and ensure that you're not looking at it in one way or the other because that's what the good is. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, good. So action is important, but understanding the reason for it, understanding what you're doing, also important, right? Yeah, got to balance these. Yeah, Ben?

Student

Yeah, I read upon Rāmānuja's commentary and it was similar to that. Really emphasized knowledge and action work together. I wrote down that specifically it said action without attachment. This will purify the mind and make that necessary foundation to be fit for higher realization. And that was a very big part of Rāmānuja's commentary, a common theme I felt throughout all these chapters, specifically on the Karma Yoga and like selfless action. ⚠

Brad

Excellent. Great. Thank you, Ben. Yeah, Olivia?

Student

I think this idea of knowledge and action really ties into Śaṅkara and the non-dual aspect because it's not one or the other, kind of like what you were saying. It needs to be kind of like one big cluster of like, this is prompting this. You can't have action without the knowledge or the understanding behind your action. So I think this really fits in with the non-dualist school. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, great.

Student

I think it's kind of confusing when talking about detachment and defining detachment because he really— Krishna really emphasizes you need to not think about the fruits of your action. But then also, so that's kind of insinuating to Arjuna, don't think about the fact that you're going to be killing all these people. But then also the fruits of his action have to do with his Dharma and achieving liberation and that stuff. So I don't know. I'm kind of confused how he's saying detachment detached from your action entirely, but also, like, later he's like, be one with me and follow me and be devoted to me. So it's just kind of like, are you detached, or are you more so like disciplining what you're attached to? ⚠

22:15

Non-Attachment to the Fruits of Action (Nishkama Karma)

Brad

Okay, good question. Um, so he doesn't anywhere say, um, don't be attached to your actions. He says don't be attached to the fruits of the actions, right? And he also doesn't say anywhere not to think about the consequences of your actions. In fact, he wants him to think about the consequences of his actions. So definitely have to think about the consequences of his actions and definitely have to be attached to the action, but not attached to the fruits of the action. And not— does that make sense? So, yeah, his point is that no matter how much— I mean, you have to do your due diligence. So you have to do your due diligence and you have to take action. And so due diligence means anticipating what you, you know, expect the outcomes of your actions to be. But sometimes in life you could be really trying your best to perform an action that you have every good reason to think is the right course of action, and then, you know, president sends a tweet and the stock drops or something like that. Like, you don't know all the consequences that could come of it, right? ⚠

Brad

So You have to do your due diligence. You have to think about the consequences of your actions. But the consequences of your actions may not be what you expect them to be. So you can't be doing it just motivated by the fruits, particularly in a selfish way. Yeah, Wilkes, and then Elliot.

Student

So your motivation can be the fruits until you do it. And then at that point, you have to detach yourself from the fruits?

Brad

I think he's saying you don't want to be motivated by the fruits of your actions. So you want to be motivated by— so the question is very like, what are you supposed to be motivated by, right? But not motivated by the direct fruits of your actions.

Student

Yeah.

Student

Why would you ever do anything if it's not for the fruits? Like, that's why you do anything, right?

Brad

Right.

Student

You don't do something because, like, of doing it.

Student

You do it because it's going to do something.

Brad

Right, which is very much Arjuna's question, right? And very lively, very live question in this chapter. And so we may— Turn next. I want to get Elliot in here, but we'll look at some verses from later in this chapter. Yeah, Elliot? ⚠

Student

So, like, what I'm hearing is, like, you want to think about the consequences of your actions. You don't want to, like, waste time or spend too much time thinking about, like, the almost infinite ways that, like, it could kind of fork off from there. Like, you shouldn't waste your time worrying about that. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, well, I mean, it's not a wasting time. It's that at some point you have to recognize that you can't know the future, right? So you've got to— that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to consider the most likely outcomes of your actions. But you could wind up in a spot, and Arjuna is kind of like the quintessential, like, exemplar of this. But he's debilitated by his lack of certainty of what the right path is. Right? So a lot of times when you're in life, you may be presented, you know, as an adult, you may be presented with like, okay, this path looks pretty good, but not perfect. And this path looks pretty good, but not perfect. I don't know which one to do. Right? So neither of them looks perfect, but which one do I do? Right? So Krishna is saying, well, you've got to have the right intentions. And it's like, well, I do have the right intentions, but I still don't know which one is the right path. Right? ⚠

Brad

So if you don't know which one is the right path, your options are keep deliberating, but that could be an endless— that's likely to be an endless process, right? Or it could be saying, oh, I'm not going to do anything, I'm going to take no action. And Krishna is saying that's also the wrong thing, or at least even that is an action, right? Inaction is an action. So that doesn't get you out of the turmoil. So he's saying, you know, in life you've got to recognize that you're not always going to have— you're rarely going to have perfect knowledge of the outcomes of your actions. Maybe never. Yeah, Olivia? ⚠

Student

One thing that kind of like helped me to understand like the fruits of your actions argument that we've been talking about, I looked up like what would chapter I think this is chapter 3, like equate to like action and inaction. And it like pulled up the idea of like the trolley problem. And it was like, oh, like if the train is going to go like over there and it's like 2 people you don't know or like 1 family member, like what would the outcome be? And I think that really relates to the way that like we can keep thinking about things, but then we also like do somehow know the action. So I thought that was like kind of a modern example. Example of looking at the consequences and fruits of our actions. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, sure. Like, if you don't pull the lever, something's still going to happen, right? So even inaction is a kind of action. And you could say— yeah, yeah, good example. Yes, Samuel?

Student

So is it more so like Krishna saying you want to be motivated by the fact that you have to do your duty and less on like the consequence of that?

Brad

You need both, right? So you have to think about the consequences of your actions, for sure. But Krishna is saying you don't know the cons— I mean, sometimes in, like, in battle, and particularly in particular, right, things can get really chaotic and outcomes are overdetermined. So you don't know what the consequences are going to be. That doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to anticipate what you think the actual— the outcomes are going to be, right? You should definitely make ethical decisions based on good intentions, right? Not just selfish intentions, but Śreyas intentions— intentions for the larger picture, the greater good, that sort of thing. And you have to anticipate what you think, you know, the outcomes of those actions are going to be. But at some point, you've got to take action, right? And the point where you are required to take action is always going to be before you have perfect knowledge, right? You're never going to have— so don't let that lack of perfect knowledge become a debilitating factor, which is exactly what it is for Arjuna, right? ⚠

Brad

So he is debilitated by the fact that he can't predict the future, and Krishna is like, bro, it's not your job, right? Your job is to anticipate from your perspective using your tools. You've got to do your due diligence, right? He's not absolving him of that responsibility. Ability. But at some point you have to take some action.

Student

So it's like you can't control the uncontrollable, but when you can control it, control it.

Brad

Exactly. Well, so much better said than I said it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. So back to the question that Wilkes is asking, though. So then what should motivate our actions if we're not motivated by the fruits of our actions? Then what should we be motivated by? And so let's look at some of these famous verses beginning with verse 20. I'll just read a little bit. Krishna is saying, I'm reading the Gemini one, by karma alone Janaka and others attained perfection. Even considering the holding together of the world, the word there is Lokasaṃgraha. Loka means worlds, both in the sense of like the physical world, but more here in the sense of like the people of the world, like, hey, let's unite the world or whatever. What we mean is like uniting the people of the world, right? So, and graha means grasping, like grabbing. It's where we get the word grasping and grabbing. So graha. And sang means together, right? So let's hold the people together. So that's what should be motivating your actions, right? So these folks that were great exemplars like Janaka and others, what motivated them was Lokasaṃgraha, right? ⚠

Brad

Whatever the best man does, that very thing other people do. Whatever standard he sets, the world follows that, right? So this is really a text about leadership and for leaders, right? And so if you're in a position of leadership, then other people are going to look to you and other people are going to follow your example, right? And so Krishna is like, look, all right, for me, in the next verse, 3:22, for me, there's nothing to be done, right? I'm God. I don't have any— there's nothing for me to do, nothing to be attained, nothing unattained, and yet still I engage in action, right? So why did Krishna or vishnu, you know, descend and incarnate or descend, you know, be present in this way, even though he doesn't have anything to gain from it, right? So nothing for him to gain, and yet he still does it because— next verse 23— for if I were not to engage unwearied in action at any time, men would follow my path, right? They'd just be sitting around smoking fun things. Verse 24, these worlds would be destroyed if I did not perform karma. ⚠

Brad

And I would be the maker of mixing and I would destroy these creatures. Verse 25: As the ignorant act attached to action— right, so he's saying not to be attached to action— so the wise should act unattached to the fruits of action, desiring to hold together the world. Right, so what motivates one's actions is not the direct fruits. How is this going to benefit me? How is this going to benefit my family? But instead, what's going to result in Lokasaṃgraha? What's going to be for the benefit of the world or holding the world together, holding things together, right? So Śreyas versus preyas would be another way to look at it, right? So I'm not motivated by the fruits that are going to come to me. But instead that which is going to be most trea or beneficial for all. Yeah. Others? Anything else on Chapter 3? Cool. All right, we're on to Chapter 4. Here, breaking the pattern that I just said is there. So in the beginning of the chapter, we hear from Krishna, and then verse 4, Arjuna asks his question, right? So Krishna is saying, I've been teaching the same message, right? ⚠

33:23

Krishna's Incarnation and the Restoration of Dharma

Brad

I've been teaching the same truth. Truth is always true. I've been teaching this truth since the beginning of time, right? I've taught it to your ancestors and all this kind of stuff. And Arjuna's like, bro, like, you were born like around the time that I was, right? Like, you're my cousin. So like, how should I understand this, that you, my cousin, right, proclaimed this thing way before either one of us was born, right? And then Krishna very importantly says, many births Many of my births have passed away, and yours too, Arjuna. I know them all, but you don't know. Even though being unborn and imperishable nature, even being the Lord of Beings, presiding over my own prakriti, I come into my own— I come into being by my own mysterious power. For whenever duty— here's the important part— for whenever duty Sorry, it's awkward. For whenever of duty, or Dharma, a decline occurs, right, whenever Dharma goes down, and a rising of adharma, or the opposite. So whenever justice declines and injustice inclines, then I send forth myself for the— here's the motive, right— for the protection of the good and the destruction of evildoers. ⚠

Brad

For by the sake of establishing Dharma, I come into being. Age to age, right? So in my lecture, one of my lectures on last Tuesday, right, we talked about the various avatars, the 10 avatars of vishnu. So here, this is exactly what we're talking about, right? So Krishna is basically saying, I am an avatar of vishnu, and the whole point of me being an avatar or descending into this world, I do that whenever Dharma recedes and adharma Whenever injustice is taking control, right, over the pendulum switches to the adharmic side of things, then I take my birth, then I come and incarnate or descend. Yeah. ⚠

Student

[Speaker:AUDIENCE] But in this case, Krishna, or I guess vishnu, is motivated by the fruits of his actions. So wasn't he just telling us necessarily not to do that? —based solely off of that? ⚠

Brad

Well, so his— I guess would that be his own Dharma to restore Dharma to the world? Yeah. So he's motivated by Dharma. Yeah. And so, I mean, I hear what you're saying. Like, on the one hand, isn't Dharma a fruit of action, right? But he's saying Dharma is something bigger, right? Justice is something bigger. And so you should be motivated by justice, and you take this individual action, and its consequences are like small, right, in comparison to the big. So he's motivated by the bigger sense of Dharma, and when things kind of tip over towards the adharmic sense, then he comes and descends for the purpose of, you know, giving direction. In this case, you know, direction. So he's not taking action destroying the evildoers, but instead appearing, right, appearing to Eduardo. Yeah, I'll come back to it. Yeah, Ben. ⚠

Student

Yeah, I kind of noticed that too, the commentary. Like, a lot of it was on how this means like the soul must act through prakriti and like kind of has to be like committed like as an offering to God. Like, you should be able to carry out in this one year like Dharma, like the duty of doing it like as like the selfless action. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, that's Rāmānuja's commentary, right? Yeah. Yeah, so Ramanuja is basically saying, right, you should do everything that you do should be as an offering to God, right? So every action. So I'm not motivated by the fruits of action. I'm certainly not motivated by like what is God going to give me, my reward, or heaven or something like that, right? But I do it because I'm devoted to God and because God wants what's dharmic, right? And so I do it because of that reason. And then adding on to that, verses 10 and 11: Freed from passion, fear, and anger, absorbed in Me, taking refuge in Me— that's a big verse for Ramanuja— purified by the austerity of knowledge, many have come to My state of being. And then verse 11, this is one of the ishta deva verses. You know what ishta deva is now from last Tuesday. In whatever way they approach me, exactly in that way I favor them. Right? So in other words, Krishna doesn't, or vishnu doesn't just descend and incarnate whenever things are adharmic, but descends and incarnates in a way that's most conducive for Eduardo. Right? ⚠

Brad

So like, will come to Eduardo and present, right, to Eduardo in the way that's like the most Eduardo-esque way, right? So like, we'll present to Eduardo, or manifest to Eduardo in a different way than like to Yaroslava. Why? Because Eduardo and Yaroslava are different, right? So that again, that act of grace, so taking— so Krishna descends anytime there's adharma, anytime there's injustice, and descends and presents, you know, manifests to this individual or that individual because in the way that they're most receptive to that message for the purpose of, you know, giving you insight into which is dharmic, right? And then as Ben is saying, then you should perform that action just as an offering, right? Just out of love and devotion to God from a Rāmānuja's perspective. ⚠

Student

Yeah, yeah, I have some thoughts on verse 16 that says, uh, what is action and what is inaction, and even the wise are confused in determining this. Now I shall explain to you the secret of action by knowing which you may free yourself from material bondage. So what I think about it, if we, if we like, um, understand ourselves as if I am brahman, yeah, brahman, I need to do those actions not in order to prove or like reach the state of Brahman, but because I am Brahman, so I need to do it like from internal intention, rather than prove that I am Brahman because I'm doing those things. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, so you are Brahman and everything you interact with is Brahman, and that's true whether you know it or not. So knowing it doesn't change that fact, right? But knowing it does change some things, right? And so another thing we could take away from that verse 16 and 17 is, remember, one thing I've tried to emphasize earlier in the course is that karma— karma means action, but prior to the Bhagavad Gītā, karma really meant performance of the Vedic rituals, right? Those sacrifices, the yajnas, the sacrifices, right? And the Bhagavad Gītā now, especially in these chapters, is pushing that further, right? And saying, okay, so in order to do the rituals, you have to be a disciplined person, right? You have to read the scriptures, you have to study the grammar, you have to know the vocabulary, you have to memorize these terms, you have to memorize the scriptures, for one, right? You have to be the kind of disciplined person who's very meticulous and thinks through all of your actions. You don't take actions without thinking through the consequences. You do— you're learning discipline when you're learning those rituals, right? ⚠

Brad

And then it's not that, okay, once you understand the truth, once you understand brahman, then you don't perform those rituals anymore. But instead, once you have become the kind of person that is meticulous in your actions and disciplined in your actions, then you want to approach every action that way, right? Even eating, even breathing, even inaction, just everything, right? So taking the disciplined way and disciplined motivation that you approach the rituals and radically expand that to include all actions, right? So every action. And why? Because Every— and when I eat, I'm eating Brahman, right? And when I eat, I'm destroying whatever I'm eating. When I breathe, I'm breathing, right? So everything is Brahman. So then what becomes the point of doing anything, right? And Krishna is being pretty clear that the point is to increase Dharma, right? So if you're combating adharma and promoting Dharma, then you're on the right path. Right? And any given path may, you know, there may be consequences that you didn't anticipate. There may be, you know, those sort of things. You can't anticipate everything. But it's not your job to anticipate all of those things.

Brad

It's your job to think about the consequences of your action, understand your duty, be the kind of disciplined person who approaches all actions in this way, and then act. Right? And then what happens, you have to offer that, you know, do this action as an offering, and it may not turn out the way you think, but that's the best you can do. Yeah, other thoughts, questions? I'm talking too much, aren't I? Um, yeah. ⚠

Student

He uses an action to action, and action is the action. So I'm just kind of curious, I guess, you talk about like, so like, path or recognition, so like instead of like maybe Krishna or something, instead of like just see it on the surface, would you kind of like think like deeper or no? ⚠

Brad

What would be the things you would— So I mean, like I said, he's taking the word karma and he's radically expanding it to every action, right? I mean, the trolley problem is actually a pretty handy example there, right? So whether you pull the lever— you all understand the trolley problem, right? Whether you pull the lever or not, still an action, still has consequences, right? So recognize that whether you engage and you fight against those who are committing acts of injustice, right? That's the question, right? Arjuna has— there are bad people doing bad things to innocent people, right? So you could act against those people who are doing unjust actions, or you could not. But if you don't do anything in the face of injustice, that's still making a choice, right? So whether you stand up for the poor and the oppressed or not, either one of those is still an action, right? Action or inaction. In the face of injustice is still a decision, right? ⚠

Student

Yeah. If we should be disassociated from the fruits of our action, then shouldn't we also be disassociated from the fruits of our inaction? And then therefore, don't our inactions now become inaction? Because the fruits of it don't matter.

Brad

So therefore, when we I think disassociating might be going further than non-attachment, right? So like, if I'm attached to my action, then I'm motivated by the outcomes, right? Rather than motivated by Lokasaṃgraha or Dharma or righteousness or goodness or truth or justice, right? And so sometimes when they act motivated by justice, let's say, right, then I'm not attached to the outcome of the direct outcome of my action, but instead I'm motivated by justice, right? And so I'm not attached to the outcome of my action, but I am motivated by justice, which is different than being not associated with the action. Does that help a little bit? Yeah. ⚠

Student

I just thought the key message was focusing on the fruits too much could lead to inaction. ⚠

Brad

Yes. And yes, that's a— sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. ⚠

Student

I was just like, which is worse than action, I guess? Inaction is worse than action. ⚠

Brad

I mean, at the end of the day, Arjuna's big problem is inaction, right? So he drops his bow. Everything in the Mahabharata up to this point has led to, like, we've tried every other option. Right? These people are committing horrible acts of injustice. They've tried legal means. They've tried negotiation. They've tried everything else. Right? And so now it's come to the point where there is no other option but to physically stop these people who are doing horrific acts. Right? And so then, at that moment, when the decision has kind of already been made by discussion, of wise people and good people, "Hey, we've got to, you know, stop these bad actors from doing bad actions." It's at that point that he's like, "Wait, is this really right?" Then he falls back into indecision and falls back into inaction. And Krishna's point is like, that is also an action, right? Not responding to injustice. Yeah, I think you got it. Yeah, so So you can't say, I didn't know the outcomes, because you can't know the outcomes, right? You have to anticipate them. You have to think them through. ⚠

Brad

But you can never have perfect knowledge of the outcomes of your actions. So don't let that be an excuse for inaction. Good? Cool. Others on, uh, chapter 4? Okay. Yeah, Olivia.

Student

Um, I just had one that we brought up in our podcast that we saw was like a connection to Mark, which was in 4:31, and it was, "This world is not for one without sacrifice." And I thought that that related to the passage where it's like, "If your hand sins, like cut off your hand," because sacrifice, like as they talked about in Mark, is one of like the methods to like attaining like eternal life in heaven. So I thought that that was interesting that like the theme of sacrifice and its importance shows up in both contexts. ⚠

48:40

Sacrifice in Knowledge and Comparative Links to the Gospel of Mark

Brad

Oh yeah, for sure. Sacrifice is really central to both of them, for sure. Yeah, good. I mean, here, the 31, you said, right? The sacrifice here, I mean, we really should be thinking about the the rituals, right? The rituals like the video I showed, right, of them throwing things into the fire. And so matter and energy is neither created nor destroyed, therefore everything is in a state of constant transformation. And then this is taking that to, you know, relating that directly to sacrifice. So shaping the clay, right? There's a fixed amount of Play-Doh or clay, right? And so we've got to in order to shape a world in the form of justice, that's going to mean destroying some, some of what's already here, right? So recognize that every action is— can be a form of sacrifice. Yeah, I don't know if this is like jumping ahead, but that's okay, we need to— ⚠

Student

when you're talking about only certain people are able to do the sacrifices because they're cost prohibitive or whatever. Yeah, but at the end it's talking about how like even a leaf or water is enough to sacrifice because all that matters is your love for Krishna rather than like the grandeur of your gift. Yeah. So then how come people like aren't able to do it? They don't have enough money. Like, couldn't they do the sacrifice and just instead of maybe— I don't know what they're burning, but like instead of burning expensive things, they just burn cheap things so long as they have real sincere love? ⚠

Brad

Yeah. And Krishna is even saying it doesn't even matter if you burn it, right? The point is your motivations, your intentions, right? So if you're doing this thing, if you're performing a ritual because you have a desire for the rewards of the ritual, then that's different than if you're doing the ritual because you have a desire to increase Dharma, right? Likewise, if you have a desire to do good, you know, I mean, Krishna is radically democratizing action, right? And saying you don't need any wealthy things, you don't need money, you don't need to be— you don't need to be— you don't need anything. All you need is the right intentions, right? So if you're coming at it with the right intentions, which is being devoted to God, then that's sufficient. Yeah, and bringing a leaf, that's a leaf or even water, right? Is sufficient if you're coming at it in the right— with the right intentions. Good. Yeah, let's shift into— yeah, Samuela, Alice. ⚠

Student

I was just going to say, verse 33, when it says sacrifice in knowledge is better than sacrifice with material objects, is the sacrifice in knowledge referring to worldly knowledge in exchange for more spiritual knowledge?

Brad

So, I would have to consult a commentary and see how commentators, you know, respond to that. But we have seen this phrase, the sacrifice of knowledge, in some of the upanishads. And so what it seems to be interpreted there is that— you remember in— I don't remember which chapter it was, but I think it was the first time that we read one of the upanishads, which was probably the Kaṭha Upaniṣad. That was our first Kaṭha Upaniṣad, I think. And at the beginning of that chapter, I explained that Śaṅkara even defines the word upanishad as, you know, that which destroys ignorance, right? And that the knowledge that we gain from the rituals is a knowledge that destroys ignorance, and then takes that directly to the sacrifice, which is kind of burning. So what the, what the jnana marga, or the path of knowledge, does is it removes our ignorance, right? And so ignorance, if we take it in the most literal sense, right? So if I'm focused on Yaroslava, I'm kind of ignoring Miggy, right? And so, and to remove my ignorance is to stop ignoring Miggy. Right? ⚠

Brad

Which doesn't mean that I have to ignore Jaroslava. I could just remove my ignoring of everybody. Right? And so that's that sort of purva-purva-pravyapana, the progressive dissolution that we saw in Chapter 13. So, which is sort of progressively, all right, I'm going to focus on Angel, and then I'm, you know, which means ignoring everybody else, but then maybe I expand my attention. So that I'm not ignoring others, right? So we could take that sacrifice of knowledge to be giving up on that focused attention to sort of broaden our concern, right? So expanding, zooming out is another way to think of it, right? So if I'm focused narrowly on the consequences of my direct actions, that's super attentive and should do that, right? Not saying that that's unimportant, but you don't stop there. Then you've got to zoom out and think about, all right, what's going to lead towards more justice or what's going to lead towards more— so on that, you know, specific question, I think different commentators would probably interpret that phrase differently, but I know that's pretty much how Śaṅkara would read it. Yeah, Alice. ⚠

Student

It kind of goes back to the attachment to your action thing. But then, should you only be disattached to the fruits of your actions in times of injustice? Or is this like an every action you make thing? Because if it's every action you make, then is it doing a ritual to increase your Dharma, isn't that still like a fruit of your action? ⚠

Brad

I think you want to approach it with absolutely every action. Yeah, absolutely every action. So obviously some actions are more consequential and more important than others. But you want to be that kind of disciplined person that approaches every action in this particular kind of way, right? Yeah, my guru, Every morning when he wakes up, before he gets out of bed— I should know the verse, I feel bad that I don't— but every morning before he steps out of bed, he says this prayer, and the prayer is to the earth itself, asking forgiveness, asking forgiveness before he steps on the earth. So he's in bed, and then asking forgiveness of the earth for treading on the earth, right? So taking— then he does it, obviously, right? So the point is not to not tread on the earth, but the point is to approach treading on the earth as like, okay, this is a necessary action, and it means that I have to walk on the earth, but let me apologize for that. Let me be mindful of that, right? So that I'm approaching every step, every step Every step is a kind of karma. ⚠

Brad

Every step has— I mean, every step is a karma. And so every step has some sort of consequence. And let me make sure that I'm moving deliberately with focused attention on doing the good. Right? So whatever I do, there are consequences. And so let me try and approach every action, you know, in a way that is at least— I'm aspiring towards the good. That doesn't mean that I'm never going to mess up. That doesn't mean that I'm never going to do anything that causes harm to something or someone. In fact, quite the opposite. It's saying that whatever action I do, there is going to be some consequences, and I don't always anticipate those, but let me approach it with the right attitudes. Yeah, good. Yeah, Ben, and then Devin. ⚠

Student

Yeah, I took that as kind of like the main idea of Rāmānuja's commentary. I know it's more focused in chapter 5 when we're talking about pronunciation, but really I took away from it, and what it said was like selfless action is superior to pronunciation. Karma Yoga is superior in safely abandoning action itself without an ego. Problems, attachment— the problem is attachment and ego, it's not the action itself. Understanding this is like the necessary foundation that purifies the mind, fit for greater realization. And I felt like that was like kind of what we're talking about, really, like, Ramanuja, we took away from it that, yeah, it's not just action itself or not action itself, it's like detachment and ego that comes with action and the fruits of chasing it. Like, you can still perform your duty and carry out that Dharma, but when you act without ego, like, then you are therefore, like, building that foundation. ⚠

Brad

Exactly right, so then if I stop thinking, so nishkama karma or desireless action, right, is I don't have desire for my ego, what benefits my ego, my individual self, right, but I'm still motivated by something, right, so if my ego is out of the equation, then what motivates me is something bigger, right, some sort of promoting Dharma or love of God, devotion to God, which would certainly be how Ramanuja takes it. So if I'm motivated by that, then I'm not concerned about what benefits me, but what does God want? And the end result is actually pretty much the same whether you have God or not God. Either you're doing this because God wants justice or you're doing this because justice is good. But either way, justice is what kind of governs the actions. Yeah, Devin? ⚠

58:36

Philosophical Distinctions: Detachment, Indifference, and Disinterest

Student

I kind of just—

Student

in terms of the renunciant, also kind of talking about that, is there a line drawn between detachment and indifference? Because I think that if you're talking about going towards the good, but then he also kind of says— or I don't know if it's— maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. But in 5.23, a man "Should be able to endure the force of desire and anger before giving up his body." Or, "Seers can destroy their sins, cut through doubt, master the self." So it's kind of really emphasizing overcoming sins and suffering. But is there something to be said about being indifferent to those things, like being almost bad for you? Yeah. I feel like I wouldn't really be able to overcome something that hurt me if I was just different to it. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, I mean, this is a really important observation, right? So I mean, I think there's a big difference, as you're saying— I think you're saying there's a big difference between disinterested and indifferent, right? So this— and is there— what's the difference between them, disinterested and indifferent? Yeah. ⚠

Student

Different means you like way too different options and you're indifferent between either option. Doesn't matter, right? Disinterested means you couldn't care less about either of them. ⚠

Brad

Is it though? Does disinterested mean you don't care, you couldn't care less?

Student

I mean, with indifferent, I was kind of just thinking like I'm indifferent to like suffering or pleasure. Like I don't, like I don't care about either.

Brad

Indifferent definitely means I don't, it's, I, it I don't have any difference. There's no difference between them. But disinterested, I feel like we have to have some sort of— like an interested party is somebody who has some stake, like a stakeholder. So if you're disinterested, it means you don't have a stake in the outcome. But that's different than being disinterested, isn't it? ⚠

Student

So if you're disinterested, does that mean someone has to be interested?

Brad

Or can everyone be disinterested? I mean, so from the perspective, from Krishna's perspective, right, Krishna has an interest, and his interest, as we saw in Chapter 3, is Dharma, right? And so whenever Dharma decreases and adharma increases, then he's interested and comes to incarnate in order to promote Dharma. So then don't we, at some level, don't we all have an interest in promoting Justice? I mean, I guess if you're at the top of the food chain, then you don't. But I don't know. Is there— there's a fine line. It's an important— yeah, I mean, I think people debate this exact topic a great deal. I don't mean to make light of it. But to me, there's a difference. Maybe the difference is ego. Right, you can't be disinterested. I don't— yeah, I don't know. I mean, good question, Devi Mahatmya. Anybody else have insights on it? Yeah, Ismael. ⚠

Student

I guess maybe like you should be at least like from Śaṅkara's perspective like interested in like yourself and like furthering like your self-knowledge. So I guess you can't like be indifferent to everything, but maybe like disinterested in things that aren't within yourself, or kind of like they mentioned in Chapter 5, like ignorance, destroying ignorance. Maybe disinterest is just trying to avoid things that lead to destruction. ⚠

1:02:29

Chapter 5: Discipline, Individual Duty, and Rebirth

Brad

Yeah, right on. Good. Let's push on into Chapter 5. Yeah, so folks have 5 and— yeah, anybody have anything on Chapter 5? Also mindful of the time, and I do want to get to 6, 5 or 6. Yeah, folks. ⚠

Student

Yeah, let's go for it. Yeah, versus 1 and 2, I feel like Not vishnu, not Arjuna. Krishna. Krishna is saying that, like, kind of back onto the disinterested versus indifference thing. Yeah. It's not enough to, like, it's not enough to not do a bad action because you need to, like, be capable of that bad action in order for the inaction to mean anything, you know what I'm saying? Like, if you're like super weak and you think you're like good because like, well, I didn't go beat up someone today, like, that doesn't matter. Like, you couldn't do that. But here, I think Krishna is kind of saying like, you need to have the capabilities to do something bad and good and then choose to do the good. Like, that's where the goodness of your actions comes from. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, yeah, I think— yeah. Do you have a— which verse are you You said— ⚠

Student

I'm kind of leaning too deeply into one, but it's not really what he's saying. But I feel like that's kind of like a underlying— ⚠

Brad

Yeah. I mean, he is saying that Wilkes's duty is different than Isabella's duty. Right? And so some of that's going to have to do with like Wilkes's abilities versus Isabella's abilities. Gifts and talents and inclinations and that sort of thing, right? So, yeah, so your own duty may be different. It may be even that, right, remember the context. They're going into battle, and Arjuna is troubled by the fact that there are his— there are good people on the bad side, right? They're going to fight bad guys, but in there right before they go fight bad guys, they see, oh, there's some good guys on the bad side, right? And this is what causes Arjuna a lot of trouble, right? And then Krishna seems to be saying, it's not your duty to worry about their duty, right? Those people on the other side, some of them are bad, but some of them are doing their duty, right? So sometimes when you're in military chain of command, this text is different when we have people in the room that have been in the military, right? At least in my experience. ⚠

Brad

I have a couple of veterans in my ethics class. We're not talking about the Bhagavad Gītā though. But the issues are there, right? So, like, if you're in a military chain of command, to some extent you do have to follow orders, right? Depending on where you are in the chain of command. And so sometimes doing your duty means following orders, even if those orders seem wrong from your perspective, right? And so it seems to be Krishna's suggestion that those good people, like, you know, that are fighting on the other side, some of them are good people doing good things, and they are doing their duty, even though they're fighting against you. So sometimes, you know, when you zoom out far enough and you can see from God's perspective, which we can't, then, you know, things may look different. But that's also part of Krishna's point, is like, you can't see from my perspective, right? We will see in Chapter 11 next week when Krishna— when Arjuna does see from the biggest perspective, he gets that divine eye that I talked about last Tuesday, and he can zoom out. He very quickly gets overwhelmed, right? ⚠

Brad

So like, the point is you're not supposed to see the— you're not capable of seeing the infinite perspective. Your duty, in fact, is to see it from your perspective and act in accordance with it, right? As long as you've got the right intentions, the right motivations, which is Dharma and goodness, and as long as you're thinking about the consequences of your actions and being disciplined in your actions, that's all you can do, right? And then you act, and then leave the rest to, you know, to God kind of thing. Yeah, so many hands here. Yeah, Brian? ⚠

Student

The commentary I read was for verse 9 and talked about like set apart by his disinterest of, you know, comrades, allies, enemies, neutrals, foes, friends, all this other things. It seemed kind of counterintuitive that you would be disinterested because of that, but the way he was Swami Mukundananda. Yeah. And he basically said it's not necessarily that you're disinterested, it's that you just look at everyone as equals. So you don't have a controlling interest over one another. It's not that you don't care, it's that you view everyone as equals. And then kind of like, because they're all created in God's image, like they're all versions of brahman or Krishna, that you should treat everyone the same. So also kind of simultaneously reversing the whole caste system, because if everyone who is living is a version of Krishna, you should have respect for them and view them all as equals. Yeah, great. ⚠

Brad

And also looking at those verses, so on the disinterested versus indifferent— are you going to point that out? ⚠

Student

No, no, no, it's something else. Okay. I saw that too. ⚠

Brad

Okay. Yeah. So yeah, maybe everything I said earlier was bullshit. Yeah. As well.

Student

Yeah, I guess like going off like what you were saying, like the idea of like kind of focusing on yourself, not worrying about other people. I feel like it was really interesting in verse 6:21, but it's also about happiness. I feel like in this context, like especially like about to go to war, like that's the last thing that would come to your mind, especially like the idea of like being content and joyful. But I guess like through like Zanclos, you especially kind of viewed happiness as this bliss that comes from realizing yourself. And it also mentioned the text idea of like joy is grasped through understanding. So maybe instead of looking at it as like I'm doing something wrong through Arjuna's eyes, like Krishna's trying to say like through understanding, like you're even like just focusing on yourself, and like you're saying not worrying about what they're doing, like that's when you can be peaceful and happy. So just like furthering the idea of just focusing on yourself. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, and so there's— there is a certain piece in that of like I have the right intentions, right? Because I'm either devoted to God or because I am devoted to justice. I'm motivated by those things. I've done my due diligence. I feel like I'm performing my duty. I'm being disciplined in my action, not randomly, haphazardly just choosing an action. There's a certain peace in that, right? Once I do that, then, you know, I did everything I could do. I'm doing my best here. And then the consequences, you know, turn to shit. And then And it's like, I mean, that doesn't mean that I did the wrong thing, even though the consequences weren't what I was expecting. Right? I did everything that I could do. And Krishna's point is that that is literally what you're supposed to do. Right? So as long as you're doing all of those things, let the consequences go. It may not turn out the way you want. Right? Or the way you expect. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I think— Dylan, did you want to? Okay. Yeah, Angel. ⚠

Student

I think kind of echoing off that, in verse 22, it says obtaining it means there's no greater gain. So I kind of was thinking about what else is there after reaching your sense of discipline and sense of self. I know Krishna is talking about rebirths in this chapter and the many births you can obtain. So I was just wondering if there's anything else that you can obtain after. ⚠

Student

Reaching this sense of discipline.

Brad

Yeah, good. Whether there's anything else— explain the question.

Student

Basically, Krishna is saying there's no greater gain after finding joy or gaining peace. So I was kind of wondering on top of rebirth, and like who is able to be reborn into like the sense of they want to be. I was just wondering like what is there after that, or is there anything after that stage? ⚠

Brad

So I mean, different ways of interpreting what rebirth means, right? And those differing ways come down— I mean, like Rāmānuja's way of interpreting rebirth is very different than Śaṅkara's way of interpreting rebirth. From Śaṅkara's perspective, right, just think of the clay, right? So like matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed but in a state of constant transformation. So in this particular moment, brahman is Angel, right? And from Śaṅkara's perspective, there's never been another Angel, right? Not this Angel. There's been other people named Angel, right? But there's something totally unprecedented and unique about your particular manifestation of Brahman, right? And never be repeated. So there is no possibility of Angel being reincarnated because Angel is constantly reincarnated every moment, right? You're shaping yourself. You're forming yourself. And then when you die, you know, the material that is you returns to not you, and the you know, energy that is you returns, right? So it's not— there is no more angel, right? There's angels born, angels very unique in the history of existence, right? There's never— it's unrepeatable, right? ⚠

Brad

So there's some reason that you are who you are, and that reason has something to do with here and now, right? Does that make sense? So reincarnation, only from Śaṅkara's perspective, only makes sense if we're talking about the big picture, right? So definitely no reincarnation of angel, but the incarnation of the one self, right? Here's an example of it, right? So that one self has been incarnate in this carne, in this meat in this body, right? And also this one, and also that one, and also that one. Does that make sense? Right? And so that one self— there's only one self— so that one self is constantly being incarnated in new bodies, but it's not angels, right? Now, Ramanuja would interpret it differently, right? Ramanuja does have a sense of, like, the individual ego continues after death and is reincarnated. And from his perspective, that process ends with union with God. So then you're no longer trapped in this, okay, angel is going to be put into another body, another body, another body. But instead, you will at some point see the bigger picture and rejoin or become united with God. ⚠

Brad

And so then that's— so then you're no longer incarnated in this individual form. Right? Good. Sorry we didn't get to everybody or get further, but we'll pick up with Mark's Gospel. And Mark's Gospel, chapter 13. I mean, so we're doing 11 through 13. 13 is really especially key. That's— yeah, but the whole thing's good. ⚠