Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad (I.4.1-17)

02/24/2026 · Tue/Thu 12:00-1:15 PM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This session explores the profound theological implications of the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, focusing on the transition from the 'One' to the 'Many.' The class begins by examining the creation narrative in section 1.4, where the primordial Self (Brahman) splits into male and female forms not out of necessity, but due to loneliness and a desire for companionship. This leads to a discussion on the Mahāvākya 'I am Brahman' (Aham Brahmāsmi) and how this realization collapses traditional hierarchies between humans and deities. Students and the instructor debate the continued relevance of Vedic rituals (karma) once non-duality is realized; if the deity is not 'other' than the self, the traditional dative relationship of sacrifice—giving to another—is fundamentally altered. The conversation also addresses the nature of love and desire, suggesting that one holds others dear not for their own sake, but for the sake of the Ātman within them. The session concludes with a look at Śaṅkara's commentary on the physical text of the Upaniṣad and a preview of the upcoming podcast assignments.

⚡ Key Takeaways

The Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad suggests that the 'One' became 'Many' because the primordial Self experienced loneliness and desired the companionship of multiplicity.
Realizing the Mahāvākya 'I am Brahman' (Aham Brahmāsmi) removes the fear of the divine by eliminating the ontological gap between the worshiper and the deity.
From a Mīmāṃsā perspective, deities are primarily functional placeholders in the 'dative' case—entities to whom one gives—rather than agents with independent will.
In an Advaita (non-dual) framework, the hierarchy between gods and humans is dissolved because both share the same substrate of Brahman.
The performance of rituals (karma) may continue after enlightenment as a form of ethical and mental discipline rather than to appease external gods.
The concept of 'atman' in this context refers to the self of all beings, challenging Western individualistic notions of the self.
Difference and uniqueness are not necessarily 'bad' in non-dualism; they can be viewed as the 'unfolding' of the one reality into various forms.
The gods are described as being displeased when humans realize their identity as Brahman because they lose the 'livestock' that serves them through sacrifice.
The class discussed the 'fivefold sacrifice' as being related to the five embodied senses and the relationship between rituals and physical existence.
The instructor introduced a new Gita Study Tool and discussed the use of LLMs like Gemini for analyzing class transcripts and translations.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Meditation and Transition

Brad

Alrighty, y'. All. Howdy. Thanks, Olivia. Let's take a moment to transition. Take a moment to just keep your body and your mind still. Maybe focus on your breath.

Student

It's.

Brad

Let's take a breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out. Word. All right, let's go ahead and put two screens away, please, and start with the quiz. Oops, I stole something from the coffee room. Just keep them face down so we can just start at the same time. While those are coming around on Thursday, in addition to coming prepared on the Mandukya upanishad which I wrote my dissertation on, by the way, in addition to coming prepared to talk about that, I would also like you to come prepared for your podcast. Like you to come prepared for podcast three. So, like everyone, by coming prepared, I mean come prepared. I want you to know. I want you to come prepared to tell me which passage you're going to talk about in the podcast. Right. If you have multiple, that's fine, but just at least come prepared. You know, I'm going to talk about this passage from this upanishad. Right? So say I'd like everybody to come prepared on Thursday for your podcast, because I would like to end early on Thursday and give you sufficient time to record your podcast on Thursday.

3:13

Administrative Notes: Podcasts, Attendance, and Transcripts

Brad

So, you know, we'll probably go for like, 45ish minutes and then spend the rest of the time, you know, that'll give you 45 minutes, right, for the podcast.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

So come prepared for that. Yeah, that way, you know, because I don't want you to record the podcast before Thursday, but I do want you to record it before you go away for spring break, if you're going away. So this solves everybody's problem, right? Because then you can just record it during class on Thursday. Good. All right. Everybody got a quiz? Yeah. Yang, you don't have a quiz. Oh, my goodness. Did somebody take Yang's quiz? All right, yeah, go ahead and flip them over.

Student

It's.

Brad

Pretty good. Please do write your number on the line where it says your number. Not like on the opposite side of the page or really anywhere else. Good. Very good. Great. Pass them up, if you would. I want to show you a few things on this on the big saguna I don't know, be a little bit where it'd just be like five minutes or so. And then. So I don't know if y' all want to move or. Or you can peek over my shoulder. Thank you.

Student

Thank you.

Brad

One is with the snow and, you know, all sorts of things. I get a lot of emails about attendance. I just want to be clear again that my attendance policy is the same for everybody in every situation. So just. So, yeah, if you have any confusion about the attendance policy, maybe give it a reread and if you're still confused, then let me know. So you have on here in the attendance policy, right. There's the instructions for the makeups and there is a link to the audio recordings. And this is the noon class. So you just look for the dates. Right. Like February 19, 2026, at 10. Nope, not 10:30, because this is a noon class. So you could do it that way. That's sort of like the old way of doing it. It's so last week, this week, we have a new. A new possibility. So if you were, I don't know, like, you know, reviewing for the exam, midterm exam, obviously you've got the vocabulary review tool. I showed that. I've showed that a few times. So you got the vocabulary review tool.

Brad

And I just gave another link here so you can have it again. I don't know why it's not coming up. Yeah, this is not going to cover everything on the midterm, but if you know everything on here, you'll be very well prepared for the midterm if you go, you know. But then also, I spent pretty much all weekend creating a couple of other tools for you. One is this one. So if you go in here and click class summaries with transcripts. Or you could. Yeah, I'll give you the link elsewise. But so this is basically all of our classes so far this semester. And if you were to click on, let's say, I don't actually know why 219 isn't showing up, because it is in there. We'll work on that. But if you were to click on, say, you know, February 17th, this is the noon section. So if you click on here, then it gives you the audio. You can click right here and listen to the audio recording of the class. It gives you a synopsis about the class, which are mostly not terrible key takeaways, which I think are probably pretty useful.

Brad

But then most useful, and this is the part that I spent the most time on is the transcripts. So the, the transcripts, I think are pretty, pretty solid. And if you were to say, click on any of these numbers, you know, I don't know, there's also a lecture Prashna So if you were to click on, say, 45. 45 right there jumps you to that moment in the playback. Oh, and you can change the playback Speeds. That way you've got the, you've got the audio you can listen to and you can also kind of follow along with the text. Yeah. And then there's also glossary. So if you were to go in the glossary here, not only can you look up like ahimsa. I talked about ahimsa. When did I talk about ahimsa? Oh, on January 20, 2026. So then you could look. At Jainism. Cool. Handy. So this, if all goes well,

Student

Brad

all goes according to plan, then this should auto populate with like today's recording and today's everything for today. Probably around like 6, 6:30 this evening. So should run automatically at 4pm it takes a little time to do all the processes. Hopefully useful to you. And also you've got the benefit of being able to copy this URL and drop it into an LLM or something like that if you wanted to. Speaking of LLM, so in the. I've noticed, I think I mentioned it before, but I've noticed some folks coming in right before class and doing like control A and then copy and then paste, I assume going into some sort of AI thing. This is really a very like 2025 way of doing it. So, you know, I would encourage you to recognize that Gemini is actually right there in the document. And then if you ask it right there, then you've got the entire context of the thing. Right. So you could ask it questions about that or you could also, you know, copy the link and share the link with an LLM, that sort of thing.

Brad

If you copy and paste one chapter out of context, you're going to get inferior results. Right. So good things to know, you know, I know these are. I know it's a rapidly evolving technology, but good for you to know how to use it, I think. Oh yeah. I also spent like quite a bit of my weekends creating this tool. This is really, I'm still working on it and I don't remember if I even gave you access to it. Oh, I think I did. Yeah. Gita Study Tool. It's there. It's actually just brad.bannon or bradbannon bradbannon.com Gita where is it here. So in addition to having the entire Bhagavad Gita in here, if you were to say, I don't know, choose chapter five, then you've got the entire Gita here or at least the entire chapter five Gita here. And then this translation, this is a translation I created this weekend with Gemini's help. But putting words like sannyasa in there. So you know what word's being translated. Especially some of the key, the key words that we've been talking about like sannyasa and that kind of stuff.

16:34

Exam Format and Introduction to Shankara

Brad

If you wanted to go deeper, like say you were, let's say you were team leader or discussion leader on chapter five, then for sure you'd want to click here and go deeper. I'm not sure having the Sanskrit there is going to help you a lot but I've given you a bunch of different translations and you can toggle them on and off. But so here's the Gemini AI translation which I think is pretty solid actually. But then if you wanted to compare it, here's like Barbara Stoller Miller. She's very. Hers is more literary and she translates everything, you know, I mean she even translates brahman So she translates brahman as infinite spirit. Zayner RC Zayner, who's a Jesuit scholar, he was at Oxford. Gambirananda, as I say there, advaita. So Gambirananda was a disciple of Shankara. So you know, so you've got the advaita perspective and also the Vishita advaita perspective. So Adi Devananda is a disciple of Ramanuja and then Sivananda is kind of doing his own thing. And then I've also given you, in every single verse you can go in and read Shankara commentary on this particular verse. Right. 5.6.

Brad

Gambirananda is the translator there. And then you can do the same with Ramanuja translation or commentary. So you can see how each of these great commentators are commentating. And if you wanted to read it in Sanskrit, I mean that's just kind of cool. And then I think maybe most importantly is this a built in Gemini here? And so if you were to ask a question on this particular verse. Right. 506. Then it will answer it only using the context that I provided it. So it's not going to hallucinate or that kind of stuff. And I've given you some very useful questions like how does Shankara and Ramanuja differ on this? And so if you just click that then it will generate an answer. Choosing my API key. So I'm paying for it. So you know, don't like give it to your grandma because she's going to use it so much. But then it can give you a good sense of like you know how to Shankara who's the atheist theologian and Ramanuja who's the theist theologian. Right. ⚠

Brad

So you can Get a good sense of how these two advaita and Vishishtadvaita read the same verse of the Giza. Yeah. So hopefully a good tool. If I'm able to. I would really love to be able to do something similar for the Gospel of Mark. That's my hope. So yajna those tools are available too. I just want to show those out, point those out. Cool questions, right? Yeah.

Student

Olivia, I was just wondering what's the format of the exam when we get back?

Brad

I don't, I mean I haven't. I've created like three different versions of it so far, so. And I'm not done deciding on what, what to give you. But you know, it will take the. I think it will take the full time and if you want to take it in the testing center for any reason, then that's obviously an option for you. But it'll be mostly multiple choice, short answer, true, false, maybe some very short paragraph kind of responses also. But we'll cover what we've covered so far and probably give me a good chunk of it will just be vocabulary, other questions. Cool. Right on. Well then let's dig into. This. This is one of my. This is Shankara commentary on the Brihadaranyaka upanishad I brought these the other day but didn't say anything about them. So I will pass this around. Do be a little gentle with it but just so you can kind of see what the commentary looks like. So as I said, this is Shankara commentary. There's an image of Shankara on the front.

Brad

Obviously it's not like a Polaroid, but usually if you look up Shankara, you're going to come up with this image. I don't know, it's pretty ancient image but if you were to look inside of it, you'll see like the upanishad text here, right. In Sanskrit and then the translation and then everything after that. These sort of two columns here is Shankara commentary. So Shankara commentary in Sanskrit and then Shankara commentary in, you know, in translation. Just so you can get a sense right. Of what a commentary looks like. We've got the collected commentaries of Shankara. So these are, these are the principal upanishad here, the eight major upanishad. Yeah, eight, eight primary upanishad and then also the Bhagavad Gita which we're going to study after. yajna I'll just. If you want to look at it, feel free. This particular chapter, I didn't give you any Sort of like, you know, Brad's introduction or whatever, just gave you the. The text itself, Patrick Olivel's translation with a few edits by me and. Yeah, I gave you. I wanted to give you.

Brad

Instead of giving you an introduction, I wanted to give you a little bit more of the text. This is a. This is maybe the most famous of the upanishad. And one of the sections in here, which is not the mahavakya, but chapter two, verse, book two, chapter three, is one of the most famous passages. So let's take a few minutes. I would really like to talk about all three sections. So 1.4, 2.3, and 2. So hopefully you have some kind of comments prepared on all three of those. But why don't we take a few minutes, five minutes in your small teams, get organized and figure out what you want to say about each one of those three, and then we'll do our usual thing and start the conversation. Yeah, good.

Student

It.

Brad

I mean, I only have. I mean, I know that Devin led on the Chandogya and Olivia led on the Aitareya. That's all I know.

Student

I just think that's so unfolding.

Brad

That.

Student

Behind the things that are real,

Student

think they used more.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

I think.

Student

What makes me, like, different from you, because I thought we're, like, made of the same thing.

Student

War, technically.

30:28

Small Group Recap: Creation Stories and Brahman

Brad

All righty. Who are our team leaders today? We don't have one for 11. Yeah. Elliot. Yeah. Forest, nick, blake. All right, cool. All right. Word. Yeah. Who wants to get us started? So we'll try and do, like, before. You know, I'll keep on the quieter side for at least a bit. Yeah, Blake, get us started.

Student

Yeah, we talked a lot about that first story, the creation stories, how it started off with one, and then when he split himself into man and woman, that's when everything, like, sort of, like, escalated itself down. So it went, like, from top to bottom, which was interesting. Like, it wasn't like, there's somebody snapped their fingers and everything was suddenly on Earth. It had order to. It talked a lot about that. ⚠

Brad

Okay. Yep. Good.

Student

We also talked about the creation story, and something that we thought was interesting

Brad

was how,

Student

like, the woman who made. Because the, like, brahman like, the first, like, self was lonely. So, like, because of this loneliness then became. And then how, like, in each, like, with each creation, like, he was in that creation. So, like, the one, like the many did come from the one because of the loneliness that they were.

Brad

Okay, so we have a clear reason for. For existence.

Student

Yeah, we talked about also on this topic. So after his creation, there was some, like, consequences related to the like, understanding that I am brahman And there was the.

Brad

The.

Student

You become the self, so atman of the gods and you. And you start to be like the subordination. So you kind of like becoming a part of them and like subtract of that. And also it leads to. So the gods are obviously cannot like prevent it because. Because you just become their substrate.

Student

And.

Student

And anyone who still worships a deity separate from himself does not understand. So yeah, that was the key, like, consequences after, like he realized that.

Brad

Good. Yeah, great. Good recap too. Yeah.

Student

Elliot, just going off of that, we

Student

were kind of wondering,

Student

should you like, do you no longer have to worship in general after you realize you are brahman or do you still worship but acknowledge that you're sort of worshiping something that's part of what you are?

Brad

Yeah. Good. Interesting question. The question that comes up in Ejeta isn't so much about worshiping, worshipping. I think we mean bhakti, like devotion to God, homage to God, which is, you know. But the question that does come up very, very, very, very much a huge issue is whether or not you're expected to complete the sacrifices. Right. So then. Right. From Mimamsa perspective to sacrifices, you have to have a deity to sacrifice to. Right. But then if, as Elliot saying, like, if you're, you know, if this, if the deity is nothing other than your very self, then should you continue to perform the sacrifices? Right. Is the deity, even the word deity, like deva comes from dative, like to give. Right. So you have to give. Yeah. To the. But then if that the deities are your very self, then what would be the point of. Of doing the rituals? Right. And you have advance, even. Yeah. Advent non dualists who will answer that in very different ways, whether or not. Because if there is. If the answer is yes, then it's not because you're paying honor to the deities. Right. But for some other reason. ⚠

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Dylan, I think like one potential answer

Student

to that question is like, it's mentioned that, like, the rituals are important because of like, the intent that goes behind it. If you're kind of thinking about it, as in, like, oh, I don't need to do this anymore, in a way, like, you're kind of missing the point

Student

of what the ritual is for.

Student

It's kind of like sacrificing, so you could kind of, you know, go back to your true self in a way. So I think that could be important.

Brad

I think so, yeah, very much so. Then the, the reason for doing the ritual isn't because of the, the deity that I'm giving the ritual to or racing too, because something about me. Right. How does it affect me? Has it affect my understanding? Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Nicholas.

Student

I guess like on the other side of it, we thought it was interesting like how it kind of dissolved like a higher, like a hierarchy kind of standpoint. I feel like through all the other stories that we've read, it's more like worship with the gods. But this one's like total separation. Kind of like if we don't need that, there's no more like fear was like the main thing in content. What is the longer fear of this God kind of figure? Maybe like what is fear is like something to think about. But like there's that fear no longer exists. That hierarchical kind of standpoint doesn't exist. I thought that was interesting. That's like kind of separate from what we've learned in other similar readings like in my creation. ⚠

36:00

Theology of Ritual, Sacrifice, and Non-Hierarchy

Brad

Okay. All right. Yeah. I don't know. You might want to clarify exactly what you mean by separation, but definitely the hierarchy, right? Yeah. So it's a, A, it's non hierarchical. Yeah.

Student

Something we also mentioned is how maybe we misunderstood about how like the fivefold sacrifice and how it's almost like just by. With e, A wife and wealth, which he says is kind of the completeness of desires, which we thought was interesting. You have that fivefold sacrifice that almost makes it seem like by existing you're. You're performing some sort of sacrifice and rights like your breath, satya hearing, body, body, etc. So maybe even if you realize yourself even just by existing, you're still performing sacrifices past that. ⚠

Brad

Okay, good. Yeah. And so let's, let's. We can look briefly at that passage. So this is verse 17 in, in 1:4. So 1:4, 17. Yeah. And the, the end of that. So right before it says BrighterAnika 2,3. Now this is his completeness. We've got complete and incomplete. Right. We read about that in Rambhaan's reading also. And so completeness and incompleteness here this is his completeness. His mind is his self, his speech is his wife, his breath, his offspring, his satya his human wealth. For many people find wealth with their sights. And his body is his rites. So all of the words here that are being translated. Rites, his rites. That's karma, right? karma meaning the rituals. And this is his five fold sacrifice. So what comes to mind when you think five fold sacrifice? What do you think? Five refers to the details like five yeah.

Student

What it is the mind, speech, breath, satya hearing and body.

Brad

Yeah. Yep. So. Or even more simply just the five senses. Right, so. Yeah, the five embodied senses. satya hearing, all those kind of things. Yeah, good. So something here again, kind of being said about the relationship between the rituals, the sacrifices and. And embodiedness. Right, the embodied five senses and that sort of thing. Yeah, good. Elliot.

Student

I just want to connect that to like something we've been wondering about in the past. If like why animals are acceptable substitutes for human sacrifices. And I kind of saw that in the text. He talked about the fact that they do have those five senses. So it's kind of an equal sacrifice than the fact that they're interacting. They're all the same as you are.

Brad

So. Yeah, good. And connecting it back to what Nicholas was saying. Right. So like there's. It's non hierarchical. So I mean, an ant has those, you know, senses and I have those five senses and the deities have those five senses. Right, so then. So there would be no privileging of one over the other. Yeah, good. Yeah.

Student

I also like, for that specific topic, I found it interesting, like these parallels to like referring to everything coming back in the cell because of the commonality between like going from humans to every animal down to ants. I think it specifically mentions like, even to ants, like emphasizing like how vast that similarity goes to. And then it's kind of like the basis of the creation story. Like everything comes from one, but it divides into many, which like confuses me

Brad

people in a way.

Student

It mentions that like the fact that everything's named and like distinguished, like confuses everyone but like, like realizing that everything's one is like the, like the end

Student

goal in a way.

Brad

Great. Yep. Good. Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Student

Also some like point and question about the, about the livestock comparison that they made. Because brahman says humans who don't realize I'm brahman they are livestock for the gods. But doesn't just mean like the God. God are manipulative or like we are like we being exploited by. By them or like how should we interpret, like if it's. It's like not the manipulation from the God side, you know, so it's not like under life somebody is not realizing, but they still might like sort like wor.

Brad

Yeah, let's. I think let's. In general, especially in your podcast too. Let's read from the text. Yeah. So you want to point to a particular verse there. Are you looking at 1, 4.

40:40

Textual Analysis: Verse 1.4.10 and the Mahavakya

Student

It's 4, 10.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

So 1, 4, 10. Yeah. Which is the mahavakya verse. Right. Would you mind reading some of that? Or I can read it if you don't mind.

Student

So in the beginning, this word was only brahman and it knew only itself, atman, thinking I am brahman As the result, it becomes the whole. Am not the gods. Likewise, whoever realizes this, only they become the whole. It was the same also among the seers and among humans. Upon seeing this very point this year, Vamadeva proclaimed, I was Manu and I was the Sun. This is true even now. If a man knows I'm brahman in this way, he becomes the whole world. Not even the gods are able to come prevent it, for he becomes their very self, atman. So when a man venerates another deity, thinking he is one and I am another, he does not understand a livestock is for men, so he is here for the gods. As having a lot of livestock is useful to a man, so each man proves useful to the gods. The loss of even a single head of of livestock is faithful. How much more if many are lost? The gods therefore. Therefore are not pleased at the prospect of man coming to understand this. ⚠

Brad

Great. Thank you. It was a long passage. Yeah. So I mean very important passage. Any. Yeah. What are your thoughts about that?

Student

We were also very confused on this one. I think just because like with the God, like I guess we just don't. Don't understand why like the gods would not be pleased at the process of men coming to understand this. But I think maybe that that's our like our perception of gods or what gods or God is like. I think we were talking about how typically like you would think of God or gods as like solid wanting to help. But this feels like. This isn't feel like that. It feels more like not that we're being used, but like kind of that we're being used. So I think we were just like we were very confused as to why like I. Not that this is contributing to an answer, but just that we are also in the same confusion. Yeah, but I think that that could be because of our perception of who gods are.

Brad

Sure. No doubt. Yep. Yep.

Student

Blake, One thing that we noticed from this paragraph is they talked about the idea that like lots of think po that you should only use what you can actually read, which is something that I feel I've discussed, ⚠

Brad

which we just

Student

thought was interesting idea.

Brad

Okay. Yep. Yeah.

Student

Of course we tie this back a little bit too. When we read the three different creation stories. In the first one, one of the big ideas was that maybe even the gods don't know how creation Started. And it's again that idea of like, the gods, at least in these cases, aren't omnipotent and they might even have almost some human emotions, like, you know, I don't say jealousy, but like desire and like want, as opposed to what we think of a Christian God who is this benevolent, like, abstract idea.

Student

And even then it talks about how

Student

he created, or I guess brahman unfolding, created different gods. And when they're put in the reflection of the different classes, almost like there's even within the gods there's a hierarchy of gods too.

Brad

Right? But that hierarchy can't. Like, from a Jata's perspective, there is no hierarchy. Right? So on the one hand there seems to be this hierarchy, but then when you understand the non duality, then the hierarchy, there is no hierarchy. Right? So yeah, I think if like we're

Student

talking about non duality, then like, you

Student

can't say that like the gods are like omnipotent or like all like, or like selfless without saying like humans are selfless. And we know that like humans aren't selfless or like they maybe can be

Student

once they like reach liberation, but they haven't reached that point yet. So I feel like you can't equate the gods. Like, like, I feel as almost like

Student

the gods are more similar to like the unliberated human in that sense.

Brad

Okay, yeah, sure, yeah. Oops.

Student

I think it's interesting that humans can become almost more powerful than gods.

Student

Like Kanye quote, like, what's a God

Student

to a non believer? Like, you can sort of realize in

Student

a way that like, you are more

Student

powerful than the God and like the

Student

gods are like nervous that you're going to realize this.

Student

I think it's kind of weird how

Student

like humans can lift themselves up and become like superior being kind of.

Brad

I don't know that it is exactly becoming superior as maybe it is. Like, I mean, I think like Nick is saying it's like getting rid of the hierarchy. Right. So I don't necessarily move up in the hierarchy by getting rid of the hierarchy unless I think of myself as especially low. So, you know, But I think back to like Hannah's question. Yeah, go ahead.

Student

Like our brahman

Brad

Interesting question. Yeah, I think from. I mean, going back to Hannah's question. So what, like how are the. How should we think about the deities here? So I think one of the, One of the points I want you to take away from this, from our studying together this first half of this semester at least, right. From Imamsa's perspective, right we're trying to see this text through the lens of vedanta, right? But as I said, vedanta and Mimamsa are sister schools, right? So we really have to understand the two schools together. So Mimamsa is all about the rituals, right? It's the sacrifices, the karmas and those sacrifices. In order to sacrifice, first of all you need something to sacrifice, right? You gotta have something to throw into the fire. And you have to have words to say, recite at the right time, right? That's what understood that other people didn't, was when to use the right words at the right time, right? Liberation through speech and that kind of stuff. But you also have to have someone to sacrifice to, right? I can't just throw things into the fire. I have to sacrifice to someone, right?

Brad

So sacrifice is always sacrificing from. I have to give up something valuable, right? Naciketas says that didn't understand that. So it's giving up something valuable, but also giving it up to someone, right? And so from a Momsis perspective, the deities. Remember I had the lecture on like the Mimamsas argue over whether or not the gods exist or not. But they all agree that it doesn't matter, right? Some of them say the gods exist, some of them say that gods don't exist. But they all agree that it doesn't matter whether they exist or not. Only thing that really matters is that the gods are in the dative, right? So dative means two, right? Like giving something, right? So I'm have to sacrifice two. So as long as the date, the only purpose for the God is to be in the dative, sacrifice two. But if I. If I. So then in order for to sacrifice two, that other has to be other than myself, right? So then back to Yaroslava's original point. Once I realized that that other is my very self, then I don't sacrifice to that other anymore. Because that is my very self. ⚠

Brad

I can't sacrifice myself to myself, right? I mean, why would I? So then the deities, then they lose their ability to receive. I mean they. They're not other than myself, right? Does that help a little bit? Ask question.

Student

Yeah, yes.

Brad

But then,

Student

so like the only per. Their only purpose is to receive. Like they are like the two for the sacrifice.

Brad

But then,

Student

I don't know why is that? Like, but like, why then like do they also not have to give up sacrifices if they are not like this? Like they could. They're not like disappeared being per se. Like we're all brother and they were all the same self. Why. Why do they not have to? ⚠

Brad

So I think.

Student

I think I'm just reading too much into it.

Brad

No, I don't think you are. No, I think you're reading exactly the right way, asking the right kind of questions. Yeah.

Student

I just want to add one point that I haven't met. It's about, like, the comparison we have from previous chapters. And if we see in this chapter, we can say that word sheeper and the word sheep are the same.

Brad

Right.

Student

So it's kind of like, relates to what we was talking before.

Brad

Yeah. So the. Or we could say the sacrificer and the sacrificee. Right. Are not other than one another. Right. So then. Yeah, good. Yeah.

Student

Why is Shankara in the school of a Momsa if he doesn't even believe in the gods, or if he's an atheist, then how would he be part of, like, the school that values sacrifice so much?

Brad

So going back to the question I mentioned a few minutes ago, Elliot's question. Really? Or my recasting of Elliot's question, which is like, why then would one perform the ritual? Right. So if so, in order to have a ritual, I have to. There has to be a distinction between the sacrificer and the sacrificee. Right. And the oblation of the thing being thrown in the fire. But if everything has become the self, if everyone understands the self of all beings as the self of all beings, then there's no distinction, but the distinction between self and other falls through. So then the question comes back, is there a reason to perform the ritual? Right. I'm not doing it in order to serve the other. Then the only reason to perform the ritual would be kind of like on Dylan's point, which is, you know, has something to do with me, because being the kind of person that follows instructions helps me be the kind of person. Person that can do well in the world. Right. Or the kind of person that is meticulous in details. That's something that serves me in the world. Right.

Brad

And so having something to do with the formation of, I mean, ethics. Right. So ethical formation, moral formation. Yeah.

Student

I think this, like, realization that we don't need to be doing rituals, I

Brad

guess in that kind of standpoint kind

Student

of points back to, like, superior superiority of, like, the inner circle and like, that you only really need your true self to, like, get by in life. I think, like, such as, like, vow of poverty or something like that. You only need yourself in your own mind, not like external objects.

Brad

Yeah, but we have to be careful how we're understanding the Self. Right. So not like a small individual self, but, you know, the self of all beings and. Yeah, I think. Yeah, go ahead, Hannah.

Student

Well, I was gonna, like, go off of that.

Brad

Yeah.

52:03

Interrogating the Self (Atman) and Ethical Formation

Student

But something that, like, had brought up when we were having, like, our small group discussion is like, wouldn't that, like, that mindset. Wouldn't that lead to living a selfish life if, like, if that's how you're interpreting the self.

Brad

Right.

Student

But, like. Like, later on, when it talks about how, like, one holds a husband dear, you see, not out of love for the husband, rather, it's out of love for the self. And it goes on with all those examples.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Like, I kind of read that as, like. Because, like, the same self is in all of us. Like, you're, like, the tie of, like, loving someone else is. You're also, like. You are loving. You are also loving yourself in that process. And so it's like, promoting, like, the sense of self and that, like, you find identity in others, which I think is also why sometimes, like, that love or, like, the fear of losing that love or a threat to that love is so scary to us because it's also. You're kind of, like, losing a piece of yourself as well.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. Good. Yeah.

Student

I think, like, I don't. It's like paragraph 16, like, the numbers on the last.

Brad

Yes.

Student

Like, in that paragraph, it kind of talks about, like, the first example is, like, when you're making offerings and sacrifices, your will to the gods. And then the second one is. Or the third one is, like, offers liberation to his ancestors, is the world for his ancestors. So, like, I think, like, those examples, like, on top of the main one, it's kind of showing that, like, it's not about whether the gods are deserving of sacrifice in a way. It's just like, you're like. You don't know most your ancestors. ⚠

Brad

Right.

Student

You still, like, honor them anyways. So I feel like in that sense, it's kind of like, yeah, you don't. You don't owe them anything, but, like, you're still doing this for, like, the reason. Like, the reason you should, like, be becoming a world for, like, these sources to kind of, like, you know, change

Brad

you in a way.

Student

So, like. Yeah, I feel like without, like, these exchanges, like, the one wouldn't, like, from the very beginning, the one was, like, nothing but itself. But now, like, I feel like these. These, like, actions and, like, differences kind of make the world more interesting. And that's kind of like what's emphasized later on.

Brad

Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I have a lot to say on a lot of things. Yeah. But go ahead, Blake.

Student

I wrote down when a man regards holding himself, that dharma, what he holds dear will never purusha which could provide some sort of context on, like,

Brad

why

Student

it's not so much to put yourself first in situations.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. I think, though, we're gonna have to, like, interrogate our assumptions about the word self. Right. So there's this kid's. He's a professor at Lancaster University, Chakravarti Rampasad. He's a great, very well published tenure professor, Anadvaita. And he argues that we should not be translating atman as self and that this is only. Only destined to confuse, you know, everybody. Right. Especially in. In English, because normally when we think of the self, we think of it in a radically different way than this text. Right. So he argues that our typical understanding of self is, you know, pretty much the opposite of atman, and that therefore, we shouldn't use it at all. Right. Yeah, go ahead. Yar Salva.

Student

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit to the point of why everything we love is the atman. And exactly what you said that we, like. We need to change the focus from just, like, word self of like, translating the word atman, because it's much more. And I found, like, a few. ⚠

Brad

A few,

Student

like, topics around this chapter that were like, for example, with different objects of love begin. So the atman might also change. It's not like the single one defined point. So, for example, when we were talking about the husband, love to the wife. So in that situation, the object is wife. This is like the person. And the atman is appearing as the person as well. So when we were talking about children, this is his offspring. So the atman is appearing as like some future or continuity. When we're talking about the Wells, for example, as an object, there is going to be, like, security and comfort, which we're looking for. And in this way, the atman is appearing as a, like, fullness or fulfillment. Yeah. And the last one I found is when we talked about God. So the divine. The divine is our object. And the atman will appear as like, transcendence to the site, you know, so the atman, it's not just the only one term. It might appear in a different way as the part of ourselves. ⚠

Brad

I'm not sure if all of the last part. So the. The atman is the divine.

Student

So divine, it's not like it's not separated from you. So you are still in there. And this is like transcendence. Inside of you.

Brad

Yeah, yeah. Separation in a data in Shankara in particular, separation is almost like. It's a bad word, right? Separation. Separation is almost always going to be an indicator of misunderstanding, right? So even like in the Purusha Sukta, you notice maybe when I was teaching it, I was a little uncomfortable with like saying the self divides, right? So use the example of the paper and preferred unfolding, right? Because unfolding is not dividing, but unfolding is something different. Right? Like then in your podcast, Delaney, it's okay. You were talking about. When you were talking about the Prusa sukto, you said like the. You talked about, you know, when you look at your mom, I think it was. You were saying, like you can see yourself as sort of an unfolding of your parents, right? I think this is a good, good. A good way to. A good way to look at it. And the words here, if we look at like verse 17, we keep. Oh, yeah. Which we read a few minutes ago, right? This word incompleteness keeps coming up. So completeness and incompleteness. So we can sort of looking at. Right. ⚠

Brad

If I look at Yaroslava as a fold in the. You know, in the one that's not other than in a different fold than the one, right? So we're not separate, but are distinct, if that makes sense. So separate. Not distinct, but separate. Let me roll back because I feel like we've got so many different balls in the air. I want to try and catch them all. Yeah, that works. Try and tie all these things together so they all tie together. So back to Hannah's original, I think, question about how should we think about the deities, right? Why on the one hand, would the Mimamsis agree that it doesn't matter whether the gods exist or not, even while they're arguing over whether or not the gods exist? And the answer to that is very simple, which is that if the. If the gods exist, they have no agency, right? So if I go to McDonald's, let's say, and I give them my money, they're like obligated to give me some food, right? It's not an option, right?

Brad

I don't just sacrifice my money and say, oh, well, maybe they'll give it to me or maybe they won't. They're obligated to give it to me, right? So from a Mamsa perspective, if I sacrifice, if I perform this ritual, and this ritual is to Indra, right, Then Indra doesn't have any choice in whether or not to fulfill Indra's part of the Bargain, right? So whether or not Indra exists or Indra doesn't exist, what matters from the Momsa perspective is that I do the ritual, right? So all of this, even the promise of whatever I'm supposed to get in return, is actually just an enticement to get me to do the ritual, right? It doesn't matter. There's no agency, right? Gods have no agency. Follow. They have to do what they have to do. Be a little confused by that. If, I don't know, if you take a midterm exam, hypothetically, right? And you get all of the questions right, and then you get a D, Are you going to complain about that? Gina's like, yeah, why are you even. That's a weird example, right? Because the professor then has no agency, right?

Brad

You can't decide, oh, you got all the questions right, but I'm just going to give you whatever grade I want. Does that make sense? So in that objective sort of economy, to use Blake's term, there's an economy of exchange. I give this, God has to give me that in return. There's no agency there at all. So it doesn't matter whether the gods exist or not. The only thing that matters is whether the ritual is efficacious, right? And then so back on Dylan's point, so looking at verse 16 and the. The ancestors, right? So we've got this debt to pay to our ancestors, but the ancestors aren't around. And if I throw some shit into the fire to honor the ancestors, I mean, it doesn't affect anything, right? Except me, maybe me, right? So let's say I'm honoring Martin Luther King, right?

Brad

So then if I honor Martin Luther King and I remember the ancestors and I go through this ritual on Martin Luther King day of, like, reading Martin Luther King or what kind of things would satisfy, what sort of things would be paying homage to my ancestor, Those are going to affect me and how I choose to live my life. So then by honoring the ancestor, meaning maybe I go and I read Martin Luther King or I listen to the great speech or something like that. But then that should translate into some ethical behavior after, right? So then I become inspired by Martin Luther King and then begin to do things, see? So it doesn't matter whether Martin Luther King exists or not. Martin Luther King then, is just an object for my focus in order to form myself to be more like the way that he was. Does that make sense? So whether Martin Luther King is, like, up there in the clouds looking down at me or not really doesn't matter in that situation. Right. ⚠

Brad

What matters is me and, and whether or not this ritual is efficacious, informing how I make my ethical decisions make sannyasa, I think there's like what I

Student

heard it was like God gives you opportunities for stuff. Like instead of like, if you ask for bravery, he gives you like the opportunity to be brave. I think that's like kind of evident here as well, where like these sacrifices give you the opportunity to benefit from them. Like the sacrifice itself, like, let's say I sacrifice the lamb, like I don't actually gain anything from it, but like, if I think about you know, like the like sacred of like life of these livestock, stuff like that, like the long term benefits there. So it's kind of like doing these rituals and actions kind of gives you an opportunity to improve and go to your like, better self. But it's not like, like, like you were mentioning. It's not a quid pro quo, wait, pro bo. Like you're not guaranteed to get anything. It's just you're guaranteed an opportunity, in my opinion. But like, you never know. ⚠

Brad

Right? So the action of doing it itself is informative or has, has an effect. Right? Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. Wilkes.

Student

So like, what do you make of

Student

the fact that like you are yourself like that? Like, certainly, like doesn't there kind of

Student

have some insecurities, significance, the fact that like I am me and like that

Student

makes me unique and not part of everyone else.

Student

Like if conscious is brahman then like my conscious is. You know what I'm saying?

Brad

Yes. So I mean this, this issue of so we're all Brahm, we're all atman, right? We're all the same. But then, so Wilkes is the self and Brad is the self, right? But Wilkes and Brad, I mean, we're different, right? So then, so on the one hand, whatever makes Wilkes, Wilkes. Right? Whatever makes you different, that's also brahman right? It's not like only our sameness is brahman Right? But what makes you unique is also brahman Which then brings us back to the question, I think, like, then what is the purpose of difference? What is the role of uniqueness? Right? What is the. Yeah. How do we account, you know, economically for individuality? And this is, this is another thing. The two things that are most debated among, like one is are we supposed to keep doing the rituals? Right? And many, like Shankara would say yes for all of these reasons that we've been talking about. Others would say no because, I mean, there are no gods, right? So then why would. So you can see Both sides. The other one is uniqueness then. Right.

Brad

So then when one has this enlightenment, this moment of enlightenment where one sees, you know, all beings in the self and the self of all being, does that lead to just, oh, well, nothing matters anymore. Right? Nothing matters because we're all the self. Right. Everything is divine. So therefore nothing is divine. Or do we come back to, you know, what is the role or purpose of uniqueness? Right. And I think that is going to be the million dollar question. You know, moving forward, a couple of things, because we've got 10 minutes left, and I want to make sure. Or nine minutes left. I want to make sure we hit some points. One is looking back at from the very beginning of this chapter. Rehab, Book one, chapter four. A key reason that I gave you this text is because it gives us a reason for creation. Right. Going back to. I know we already said this, but I'm emphasizing it because it's important. So why did the One become many? Like literally in the beginning of this chapter?

Student

Yeah, Blake, the One was lonely by himself.

Brad

Yeah. First it was afraid. And then I realized, well, there's nothing to be afraid of because I'm alone. And then it was freaking lonely. Right. So why did the one become many? Because, Well, I mean, like, literally, the many is more fun. Right. The mini is less lonely and more. I mean, that's a pretty important reason, I think. Right. So then why did the. So on the one hand, why did the one become mini? Because the mini's more fun. But then maybe why did the mini become Blake? Right? I mean, maybe it's because it's more fun to be Blake than to not be Blake. Right. I mean, if the entire universe existed, but without Blake. Right. I don't know. For Lucas, it may not change that much. Right. For Blake, it would change a lot. Right. Does that make sense? So then, so the reason for being maybe even is to be different or is to be unique? Yeah. Wouldn't that make it that kind of. The reason is desire, the desire to not be lonely. ⚠

Brad

So then wouldn't us having desires and understanding our desires be kind of essential to understanding our existence rather than trying to transcend desire to be liberated? So, yeah, good question. So what is the role of desire in all of this? Right, so we do have the four purushartha One of the first things I dvaita you is that humans have these four legitimate goals, and one of them is desire. Right. So artha, or wealth, material things, and then desire for pleasure. And so desire in and of itself is not seen as something Bad. In fact, desire is maybe even the engine. It's like the fuel that keeps the engine going. Right. So desire has a role. It's just a question of whether or not fulfillment of desires are going to lead to ultimate happiness. Or is fulfillment of desires only a limited, partial, incomplete form? Right. So it's not that desires are bad, but. But desires don't lead you to the ultimate, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a role to play. Yeah, yeah.

Student

Olivia, I was just wondering, like, I know we talked about how, like, the self realized that, like, it didn't want to be lonely, but at first it was scared. Does that mean that it put its desire over its, like, personal safety? Because, like, if you're choosing to, like, appease your loneliness, but by default you're also going to have fear. I just don't really understand that.

Brad

Okay, so you can't. So you're going to be a lonely. Or maybe have some fear, Right? Yeah. I mean, so I think there's maybe some. I think I get what you're saying. Right. So you can't have happiness without sadness. Right? So. So we could see. Right. Earlier we saw Rambachan go into great detail about bliss, right? And I was like, I don't even know if this is what it should be spending so much time on. Right. So bliss is not happiness or sadness, but because it has no opposite. And so here we're seeing the other side of it. It's kind of what you're pointing to, right? Is that you can't have. So bliss is not happiness. Bliss is just, I don't know, just bliss. Right. But in order to have something like happiness, you have to have a separation. And there's going to be some sadness involved in there. Right. You can't. To be with someone at least opens up the possibility for loneliness. Right? So those dualities are dependent upon one another, Right? So you can't have. Yeah, I think. Is that.

Student

Yeah.

Student

But then also, like, this idea of, like, non duality. So, like.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Can an idea have duality but the self can't?

Brad

So I think so. I mean, I think the key. One of the key things to remember with non duality is that it's not oneness and it's not duality. Right. So it's non duality. So it's always going to have some aspect of the duality. Right? So like, happiness and sadness are two. They're different, they're separate. But you can't have one without the other. And therefore they're not entirely Two, Right. So they depend on one another for their existence.

Student

Yeah, I guess my question goes back to the desire standpoint. Someone earlier mentioned, like, do the gods like desire, like our sacrifices? I guess it's more like a general question. Or sin. Is that like a connection back, like desiring attention or desiring companionship? Is that connection?

Brad

I mean, I don't know. There's not really much about the gods. The focus is really more on me as a reader rather than the gods. Yeah, that kind of.

Student

Yeah, I know it's always kind of like focusing, like selfless, like us. But the gods always mentioned.

Brad

So I just kind of. I mean, the gods want attention, so I mean, the gods are kind of like, needy sort of. They. They need things and say they want things and so, yeah, they want devotees. They want people to sacrifice to them. They want people to worship them. That kind of stuff. Good. Other. All right, three minutes. You kidding me, man? So I really wanted to spend time on this very last section from book two, chapter four, especially this. Yeah, the last couple of paragraphs here. The last four paragraph this. I'll kind of end on this. Typically in. Typically when you're studying advaita, this. What's. What most teachers refer to as like, the light bulb moment. It's like the moment where all this stuff, all these disparate ideas, it all kind of clicks. It all makes sense. It all falls into place. You know, all these questions fall into place. And for me personally, having studied advaita for, you know, a few years before I read this text, this particular passage was my light bulb moment. And so part of why I wanted to include it was for that reason.

Brad

I don't think I'm alone in that. But looking here at this conversation between husband and wife, Yashavalki and Maitrimo, she says, I'm confused. Like, explain this to me. And he says, I haven't said anything confusing. The body, you see, has the capacity to perceive. So hopefully that brings you back to day one in my opening lecture, which is all about the body and our ability to perceive. Verse 14. For when there is duality of some kind, the Sanskrit, there is dvatam Eva. Eva is like, actually scare quotes, right? So like dvaitum, like duality. So duality and scare quotes. So when there is duality or the appearance of duality. Scare quotes. Duality, then one can smell the other, then one can see the other, then one can hear the other. Right. So you've got this distinction between the phenomenon and the ding aq, the thing itself. Then one can greet the other, then one think of the other, then one can perceive the other. When, however, the whole has become one's very self. atman Then who is there for one to smell? And by what means? ⚠

1:13:33

Closing: Yajnavalkya, Maitreyi, and Non-Duality

Brad

Who is there for one to see, and by what means? If you watch that Rambhaan video that I assigned from last Tuesday, he goes into this in that part where he talks about kena, right? The Kena upanishad Like by what means? Who is there to see, and by what means? So, literally, epistemologically, you can't have perception without that duality, right? So then ending by what means can one perceive the perceiver? Right? So little frenetic ending there, but see you all on Thursday.