Sacrifice, Substitution, and the Suffering Servant: Comparative Perspectives on the Akedah and Passover

02/12/2026 · Tue/Thu 10:30-11:45 AM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This session explored the theology of sacrifice within the Hebrew Bible, specifically focusing on the Akedah (the binding of Isaac), the Passover narrative in Exodus, and the 'Suffering Servant' in Isaiah. The class analyzed Abraham’s immediate obedience to God’s command to sacrifice his son, contrasting it with his earlier willingness to argue for justice in the Sodom and Gomorrah narrative. Students discussed the concept of substitutionary sacrifice, noting how the ram in Genesis and the lamb in Exodus serve as vicarious deaths to protect the firstborn. The discussion then shifted to the Passover, where the ritual's emphasis on haste—symbolized by being dressed for travel—signaled a transition from stable order to communal liberation. Finally, the class examined the 'Suffering Servant' of Isaiah 53, identifying a theological shift toward an innocent figure who suffers for the benefit of the community. Throughout the dialogue, students applied comparative lenses, drawing parallels to Hindu figures like Śunaḥśepa and Naciketas, while utilizing the methods of Upasaṃhāra (coordination) and Samanvaya (harmonization) to synthesize these diverse scriptural traditions.

⚡ Key Takeaways

Abraham’s response to the command to sacrifice Isaac is characterized by immediate obedience ('Here I am'), contrasting with his earlier moral advocacy for Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Akedah introduces the concept of a substitute sacrifice, where a ram takes the place of the son, a theme mirrored in the Passover lamb.
In the Passover ritual, the requirement to eat with belts fastened and sandals on feet signifies a state of 'disorder' and urgent haste toward liberation.
The Passover blood on the doorposts serves as a visible shield, marking a distinction between the Israelites and the Egyptians during the tenth plague.
Isaiah 53 introduces the 'Suffering Servant,' an innocent figure whose suffering for the benefit of others flips the traditional script of reward and punishment.
The Suffering Servant represents a theological innovation where the innocent suffers for the sins of the community, a concept found in the book of Isaiah.
The class discussed whether Abraham's obedience was a form of moral heroism or absolute trust, comparing his lack of hesitation to the delays seen in the stories of Rohita and Naciketas' father.
Upasaṃhāra (coordination) and Samanvaya (harmonization) were emphasized as essential tools for the students' upcoming podcast discussions to synthesize different scriptural voices.
The theological shift in Isaiah 53 suggests that the suffering of an innocent individual can benefit the community as a whole, moving beyond individual retribution.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Transition and Moment of Presence

Brad

Four minutes late. What a slacker. Man, that's crazy. All right, well, let's take a moment to transition and just take a moment to be still. It. Take a breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out. Word. Word. All right, I'll start with the quiz. As you can probably tell, I am feel like crap, So I'm gonna cancel office hours today just because I don't want to do it. So if. If you were planning to take a quiz, like do a makeup quiz, I can still do that. So if you're planning to take a makeup quiz either after class today or during my office hours, I can stick around for like 15, 20 minutes just to do the quizzes. But I'm not going to do regular office hours today. I passed around enough.

Student

It's.

Brad

I don't want to rush anybody, but if you're still writing, you might be writing too much.

8:05

Administrative Notes: Assignment Submission and Classroom Setup

Student

It.

Brad

Okay, good. Should we pass the pasta forward? Try to put the. Keep them all oriented the same way, you know, so like, all the numbers in the same. You know, be kind rewind, as we used to say in the 80s. Based on the sniffles. Sounds like I'm not the only one that feels like poo.

Student

Poo.

Brad

It's really only from the neck up. From the neck down. Cool. In the game, I can't go over it quickly, Stand up so I don't fall asleep. I had a student who did that once. It was really, really tired. Came up at the beginning of class. It was a really great student. And he came up to the beginning of class, and he was like. I mean, I could see it in his face. I was like, I am exhausted. He stayed been up for like 40 hours straight, you know, like, worked two jobs and in school full time and all this kind of stuff. And he was like, you know, I had. It worked. And then I stayed up all night you know, writing essays and stuff. And he stayed just really tired. And he said, is it okay if I, you know, stand in the back of the class during class? I was like, bro, you do you. But, like, also, you know, I record every class so you don't have to be here, you know, I mean, you're, you know, whatever. He's like, I love your class. ⚠

Brad

I want to be here and all this kind of stuff. So I. I was like, right on. So he stood in the back and, you know, for 75 minutes, but around minute 60 or so, you know, I'm like, up at the front. Like, I was using PowerPoint that day, scrolling through my slides. And, bro, he starts, like, falling asleep. So he started doing this, and he was like a big guy, you know, he started doing this, and I'm like, yeah, that's not distracting at all or anything. And so he's doing this just to stay awake. And then he stopped. And then, I don't know. I mean, I saw it coming. It was like. I wanted to yell, timber. I couldn't yell anything. I just, like, was in shock. But he just hit the deck, and all the students around him were like, what? You know. Yeah, feel free to stand up if you feel like it. All right, so in the Akedah narrative, what does Abraham tell Isaac when the. When he asks where it is,, It says, God will provide the lamb. True or false? The Ikeda narrative takes place at Mount Moriah. Correct. ⚠

11:31

Review of Theology Definitions and Unit One Goals

Brad

This is not a religion class. Just to be. Just to be clear, I do teach a religion class. The guy I was just talking about, he fell asleep during the religion class. But if this were a religion class, then we would talk a lot more about the geopolitical significance of Mount Moriah. It pretty much is the center of the earth, at least geopolitically. It's around. It's the center of so much controversy. It's a small little piece of land currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, Israel. So you've probably seen pictures or maybe been to Israel or Jerusalem. There's a big golden dome. You know, if you picture Israel, you probably picture that big golden dome. That golden dome is on the site where this Akedah happened. And it is considered the most sacred site in all of Judaism. It's considered the second most sacred site in all of Islam, and it's certainly considered highly sacred site in Christianity as well. So that specific spot of land is. Yeah. Super important. According to the chapter, what's one of the key theological differences between the Passover and the Akedah?

Brad

So in the Passover, the firstborn sons were killed by God rather than sacrificed by their dads. What were the Israelites instructed to do with the blood of the Passover?

Student

Put it on lintel.

Brad

Exactly. Yep. And what theological innovation does a suffering servant in introduce?

Student

The suffering of one for the community as a whole.

Brad

Yeah. Particularly the suffering of an innocent one for the benefit of others. Right. So then usually we think of, if you do something bad, then you get punished, and if you do something good, you get rewarded. But here the script is flipped. Right. So it's the good one that's. That suffers for the sake of the sins of the Bat. Obviously, the suffering servant is not from the book of Jeremiah. What book is it from? Yeah, Isaiah. Yeah. And then Upasamhara and Samanvaya. Samanvaya. These I really like you to discuss in your podcasts. So I think podcast two should. Yeah. Really want to make sure everybody understands these terms. This is definitely beyond the midterm, but, like, but it's more than just the understanding, the vocabulary. Really want you to put it into practice. Right. And I mean, like, kinda sort of the point. One of the goals of unit one was to emphasize that theology is a way of seeing. Seeing. Right. Learning to see. And in here, this unit, it's more about learning to hear. Right. So ear training. ⚠

Brad

So the goal of chapter of unit one was to say, you know, theology is a way of seeing, seeing and being seen, feeling ourselves. Seen feeling ourselves, you know, striving to see and be seen, which obviously doesn't end in seeing God, but may end in being seen by God.

Student

Right.

Brad

As Anselm said. And then as we learned from Clooney, you know, an important goal of studying theology is learning to see our neighbors through the text. Right. So learning to see one another through the text. So the text is a kind of anchor for that direct perception of our neighbors. And here it's another form of direct perception. Hearing is another form of direct perception. Right. So seeing is direct perception, hearing is direct reception. But here it's about learning to hear. Learning. Yeah, Learning to hear. Right. So Upasamhara is coordination and Samanbaya is harmonizing. Harmonization. So making them sound, you know, hearing the texts together. And we will do that even more poignantly next year for podcast too. Just a couple of notes. I've listened to all of them from this class. I have a couple more from the next section that I need to listen to, but very good. I say only couple of small issues for the most part. They were really, really, really fantastic. Great. Just be sure you're following the instructions that are in the syllabus, which really means I would avoid using a script. Now it is okay. Absolutely. Okay. Right.

17:01

Podcast Assignment Guidelines and Taboo Words

Brad

If you're, you know, everybody should be leading a discussion, such a portion of it, it's absolutely fine if you're nervous about that and you want to get that part right, you know, and you kind of write out what you're going to say for your discussion portion you know, leadership. But then once you read that, go off script, the only text you should have in front of you is really, is the scriptures, especially from this point forward, really want to Focus on the sacred text. It's a sacred text class. So I think for Podcast two, let's follow this format. I liked your jokes. It was good. Appreciate it. And. Jokes are certainly. Yeah. And some of you have a little intros, Outros, like the intro. Music, like the intro. You know, intros and outros. That's all good. Have fun with it. I don't mean to, like, emphasize the rules at the expense of fun. You can follow the rules and also have fun, you know, ⚠

Student

but.

Brad

So I'd like you to start. Start Podcast two with Talk about a game. You know, maybe each one of you could take just a minute or so. Don't take a ton of time doing it, but I like each of you to talk about a game. Maybe a game that. Maybe a game that you played with your family growing up. You know, if you played games with your family, then, I don't know, pick one and talk about that. Or if you play games with your friends, it could be. It could be Fortnite or something like that. Or it could be, you know, even better. It might be something that you play in person, you know, something like that. But I don't know. Yeah, I think just for fun, talk about a game that you like to play with your family or something like that. And then. And then, yeah, I think for the. For the other parts, right. Each person should take a lead. And when you take a lead, keep the focus on the text, Right? Really keep the focus on the text.

Brad

Which means that when it's your turn to lead the section, you really should read a passage from the text. Right? So read it out loud. You know, say, this comes from, you know, Isaiah 53. I'm going to read verse four. You know, don't read the whole, like, long thing, but just read a verse or two, whatever you need to read, you know, and say, I want to talk about this. Just raised this question. Connects in this way or whatever. But use all of the writing that I've done to help you interpret the text, but keep the focus on the text, not on the parts that I wrote that make sense. So, I mean, both are important, but the text is way more important than what I wrote. Good. And then the other thing is, whatever day you. Whatever your leadership day on, you should cover a different text for your portion in the podcast. But obviously, everybody should be listening and responding to everybody else. Any questions about podcasts other than those two little things? They really were very good, so I enjoyed them. And. All right, so today. Oh, wait, one more thing.

Brad

I'm Also going to have. I'll start this. Taboo words. All right. Words that you know you shouldn't say. So let's try start instituting some taboo words. We'll start with just three that I care pretty strongly about that I would really love for you to just not use, especially in the podcast. But the word religion is not a religion class. And religion can be super, super distracting in this class. Also, the word Hinduism, I don't. I legit. Don't even know what that is, but definitely don't use that word. And Christianity, I think I'm not really sure what that is either. They both seem like abstract nouns to me. So let's avoid those sort of abstractions that keep the focus on things we can see, taste, touch, smell, hear. Right. Like the texts themselves. Right. So it's fine. These are not taboo. Not taboo words would include words like religious or religiously. Things like Hindu. That's fine. Things like Christian. But these are. What's the grammatical difference between this column and this column? Yeah, yeah. And these are nouns. Right. So don't use these nouns. Adjectives, adverbs, all good. Right.

Brad

But so if you're talking about a Hindu tradition or Hindu text or Christian text or Christian practice, that's okay. But these sort of made up categories that only sort of make sense as abstractions, let's try to avoid those. Cool. All right, so we've got Scott, Allie, Caroline, Eva, Colin, and Luke. Yeah.

Student

Just a comment on the game part. Is that supposed to tie it to class or is that like an icebreaker?

Brad

It is. It will definitely tie to class, but you don't need to tie to class. It'll be more relevant for the future. In our future. Yeah. Things. So. No, just a game. A game that's a game you enjoy. A game your family's played. Don't overthink it. Okay? Don't overthink it. Yeah. You can think of it as an icebreaker. That's totally fine. Any other questions? Right on. And like I said, do have fun with it. Fun. Fun is. Fun's good. All right, cool. Should we kind of arrange a little bit so we can see each other a little bit more? Yeah, so. And we can. We can start in teams also. So why don't you take a few minutes in your teams just kind of. Team leaders can kind of organize what they're planning to say. No problem.

Student

I love how our team always puts our leader for the day right next to you.

Brad

Say that again.

Student

I love how on our. Our team always puts our team leader next to Our leadership.

Brad

Oh, you do? I didn't notice that.

Student

Good. I think the strategy.

Brad

We're scared.

Student

We're, like, trapped in the corner. Can't see.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. It's not an ideal setup for discourse.

Student

I think it's fun, though.

Brad

It's like a big square. It's bad. Yeah. It's not. It's. I've definitely been in worse rims for it. Maybe if we had to do, like,

Student

a fire exit, maybe a problem. Yeah.

Student

I feel like something I noticed is, like, a overarching,

Student

But I found it interesting because.

Brad

You. Thank you. And then also, like, I think it's

29:05

Discussion: The Binding of Isaac (Genesis 22) and Obedience

Student

interesting that, like,

Brad

The. Already. Who wants to get us started? Eva.

Student

Immediately.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

That really contradicted, like, the fathers that we've heard about in the past where, like, when they have to give up a sacrifice, like, their most prized possession will, like, avoid it or, like, take their time that he was so obedient.

Brad

No hesitation at all. Just like. Yeah, yeah, Kyle kind of going off that.

Student

I was interested to see, like, what everyone else's thoughts were, but I kind of, like, was curious what you thought, like, it was obedience portray, whether it was, like, moral heroism or, like, ambiguity or something beyond morality. And, like, if you think the text value more like ethical reasoning or, like, the absolute trust within someone, those kind of, like, tying into the themes of faith and obedience. But to me, obviously, I don't think anyone in here would do the same thing with their first and only born kid.

Brad

So also, just to be clear, Abraham's hearing a voice in his head, right? So if a voice in your head says, you know, kill your son, take us. Take a beat, right? Yeah. Maybe not so immediate. Yeah.

Student

I feel like it's a situation very based off trust and, like, faith that, like, what you're being told is kind of the right thing to do. And, like, in the upanishads because Naciketas kind of accepted death and, like, accepted it was gonna happen, he was kind of, like, rewarded. And I think it's the same thing with Abraham where he accepted that he needed to sacrifice his son. And because they both accepted that that's just what they needed to do, rather than trying to run away to find a substitute. I think in the end, they were both rewarded with, like, the angel coming and being and saying, oh, you don't have to do this anymore. I just wanted to see if you could. Now you can sacrifice the ram.

Brad

So clearly just a test, right? Yeah.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

I'm gonna sneeze. I just don't know when it's gonna come. There it is. Thank you. Okay, Scott. Sure.

Student

Something I recognized in the first story is, I guess maybe it has to do obedience part. But Abraham repeatedly saying, here I am. He said it three different times. Like, also talking about the angel. He first says it to God, then he says it to his son, then he says it to the angel. And, like, I'm a little confused on the repetition of it, but I'm thinking maybe because the angel stepped in, like, that's kind of shows, like, Abraham is caught between, like, the faith and, like, the divine commandment stuff versus, like, the ethics of, like, his son, like, crying out.

Brad

Yeah, that. That particular words always kind of stood out to me too. It does. Like, it comes up also in Genesis, chapter two, when. When, you know, God shows up in the garden of Eden and calls to Adam and it's like, hey, Adam. And it's like he says, here I am. The word in Hebrew is hinony. I think I'm pronouncing that right. But it's just one. I don't know. Yeah, it's a. It's an interesting word. Yeah. So it's just like, here I am.

Student

When I see repetition happening multiple times like, in addressing the different people, I'm like, there's something important going on here.

Brad

Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. Okay. Others. Yeah. I don't know.

Student

Something that I thought was interesting was, like, at the beginning where he was like, saying, take your son, your only son. And I feel like that really showed that the value and the sacrifice was, like, in the relation or like, in the relation, like, like, the father had, like, with his son.

Brad

And it was.

Student

And that's sort of like, different from, like, the first story we looked at with, like, Rogita and Tsepa, where the substitute was like, okay. And I thought that was, like, really interesting.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And that's sort of like.

Student

I don't know.

Student

I think that also, like, illustrates the difference between, like, the two stories we just read where it's like, sometimes, like, the, like, substitute is like, I don't know.

Brad

Yeah. I mean, you got all these different fathers, and they're all responding to similar situations, but not the same, but similar situations very differently. Right. So you've got, you know, as Eva said, when Abraham's told do this, he's just like, there's no hesitation. There's no pause for moral reasoning. Right. It's just like, I hear this voice, I'm going to do what it says. Right. And whereas, like, Rohita's dad, his name at the moment. But yeah, he's. He's like, I gotta find some way out of this. Right. Gonna find some substitute and everything. Yeah, yeah.

Student

Kind of adding off of that, I thought, like, like, specifically referencing that. I feel like there's a very clear contrast between the, like, idea of, like, the God or gods in the shruti versus in the Old Testament. Like, to take that example, he, like, the dad just keeps putting off the sacrifice and, like, making excuses and, like, kind of doesn't. There's, like, nothing.

Brad

No, no.

Student

Like, real punishment for it.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And Right. Like, whereas in this text, like, God wants to be feared, he or like, whatever, they want to be, like, respected. They want to be, like an authoritative figure. And then even in the Passover, God is, like, very explicit with the rules and the instructions that they give. And then if you, like, break any of those rules, like, boom, you're done. Your son. I'm going to take your son also.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

So just like, the, like, harshness, I guess, of the different, like, representations of God between the shruti and the Old Testament is really interesting.

Brad

Yeah, great. Yeah.

Student

I think adding on to that, like, every time that God says something, there's, like, no better doubt. Like, everyone's gonna do it. Like, there's no, like, form of, like, any resistance towards God. It's just kind of like you take what he says and, like, you listen to it and you just believe that, like, there's a greater good that's going to come out of it.

Brad

Yeah. So trust and obedience and. Yeah, Yep.

Student

I'm going to say too, that also kind of contrasts with the TR story read in, like, chapter eight about N's dad.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And how kind of he was trying to get out of the sacrifice to the gods with the cows and how he's sending obviously cows that weren't fit for sacrifice. So it's kind of different contrast between that where someone doesn't really care as much with their sacrifice, where Abraham, obviously, and also in the Passover, God seems almost as much more powerful and controlling as well as we need a strict sense or sense of rules to follow.

Brad

Good, good. Yep.

Student

One thing I found interesting and also kind of contradictory is how in the Abraham story, God also rewards Abraham, but in the other sacrifice story, he's freed, but the father is neti neti necessarily, like, rewarded it Yeah, for sacrificing his son.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

The difference between.

Brad

Yeah, good observation. Yeah.

Student

I just had a question. If, like, the fact that it was like a ram was the animal, if that had any sort of, like, significance or anything.

Brad

Like that, you know, I'm no expert in the text and that sort of thing. And it doesn't. That I know of. You know, I'm just going to say that that doesn't mean that it doesn't just. I don't know the answer to that question. Yeah, but. Yeah, good question. I mean, it's. It's significant that it's a substitute, but whether, you know, it's significant that it's a ram. I don't know. Yeah. Others. Any. Before we move on, there's a couple of things that, like, if you know Genesis well, you'll notice a couple of little interesting things here, right? Such as, you know, to Eva's point that Abraham responds without argument, without hesitation, without anything. That's not always how he responds. It's not even how he responded. Just a chapter or two earlier in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah. Anybody know that story? There's a. Just a couple of chapters earlier, but God goes to Abraham and says, there's this two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I'm going to destroy them. And I know that your brother is there, so, you know, I'll just tell him to, you know, get the hell out.

Brad

And Abram's like, all right, yeah, I'm gonna do that. But, like, are you sure that you want to destroy the entire city? Like, why are you doing that? Right? And God's like, well, because most of the people are bad. And Abraham's like, okay, most of the people's. Not all of the people, right? Like, you're gonna destroy the innocent people together with the bad people. Like, I understand bad people do bad things. You gotta stop that. But, like, you're gonna destroy all the innocent people, too. That doesn't seem just. That seems unjust, right? And Abraham says, you know, will not the God of justice do justice? You know, and then. So the point being, he doesn't respond to that the way he responds to, you know, this commandment to kill his son. So. So kill your son. He's like, word, you know, done. And then. But like, I'm going to destroy these cities that you don't really have any connection to. Oh, let me argue over that, right? And he. There's a. It's in a lengthy argument. And he's like, what if I find, you know, 50 righteous people in the city?

Brad

Are you going to destroy the whole city, you know, and those 50 righteous people? And he's like, no, I guess I will let it, you know, go. If you find 50 people, people and then eventually Abraham gets them down to 10, right? If I find 10 righteous people, then will you save the city? Spoiler alert, the city gets destroyed Yeah, But then the other curious thing is there's this, there's an emphasis here, isn't there, like explicitly that Isaac is his only son. That's not true, is it? Not even his first son. Okay, Everybody's just looking at me like, what? So, so yeah, earlier in the text, Abraham, who want, you know, wanted a son his entire life, he does get a son from his wife or his. Not his wife, his concubine, his slave, Hagar. And Hagar has a son named Ishmael. And so Ishmael is Abraham's firstborn son. And then when his wife Sarah at the time, Sarai, when she gets pregnant and then has a son, she's like, bro, you got to get this other hoochie out of here, right?

Brad

I don't want to see her or her little nappy haired kid anymore, right? And they get exiled, right? And so in fact, again, geopolitics, right, this is understood as the relationship between the descendants of, so the Israelites, right? The descendants of Israel and the Palestinians, right? So from, according to the text, the ones that Ishmael became the father of great nations, meaning the Canaanites and the Ammonites and all the, all the people that, you know, descendants of present day Palestine represent, and the descendants of Isaac become the present day people of Jewish people. Make sense. So curious here, right? A lot of things curious. Why does he immediately follow that obedient order without sort of doing some moral reasoning? And what about that other son? He's just like, that's not my kid anymore because I've got a better one now which I'm going to sacrifice. So some curious things about the text, right? By the way, if we were doing this text more justice than we have time for, in a comparative class like this, we would look at the Midrash. So the Midrash is a Jewish text, very sacred text.

Brad

So basically has the Torah, the scripture in the center of it and then around, you might have like one verse, you know, one verse or one small passage, maybe two or three clump of verses. But often it's just one or two verses in the center and then around it. So you've got. Yeah, I mean, So you've got like the, I don't know, the Genesis 22, verse one, just for example, right? You got that at the center and then around it you've got all of these commentaries and those commentaries, the ones Closest to the. So these are all commentaries written by different people, right? So like Rabbi Akiva is one, Rashi is one, you know, all these different rabbis that are the most ancient, the most authoritative. The most. Yeah, the most ancient, authoritative theologians, and they are writing commentaries on this. This is important because, right. From the Jewish perspective, from the Hebrew perspective, the text is at the center for real. Right. That's sacred. These other ones aren't.

Brad

But in order to really understand the text, you have to understand not just one theologian's perspective on the text, but you kind of have to understand a diversity of perspectives on the text. Right? And it's not about saying, oh, Akiva's right and Rashi's wrong, or this, you know, theologians, right. And that one's wrong. Instead, in order to become the kind of person that is well formed by the text, you have to know all these different perspectives. And in the case of the Akedah, what all of these people are really deeply troubled by is like, what are our, you know, dads in the congregations or dads in the temple? What are they supposed to take away from this? Right. If. If you read the text and you say, all right, Abraham heard a voice in his head. His voice said, you know, kill your son. And he followed without hesitation, immediately, without any moral reasoning, Right. All these, all these rabbis are like, well, you know, we don't want our parishioners to do that. Right? That's not. That's not so. Well, then what is the point of the text? Right.

Brad

What are we supposed to take away from it? Certainly the text tells us that the point is that Abraham was obedient. He followed without hesitation. But does that necessarily mean that we're supposed to do that, Right. Or not? So I'm not gonna, like, oversimplify that. There is no simple answer there. Like I already said, the point is to sort of understand that diversity of perspectives. And from a Jewish perspective, then understanding that diversity of perspectives is a form of moral reasoning. Right? So it teaches you how to think through the moral issues, and then that becomes something that can be very tangible and helpful, concrete, you know, when you're making real life moral decisions. Right. So it's not so much do this, don't do that, but here's a whole bunch of ways of thinking about moral, moral issues in a complex way. And if you understand those moral, complex reasoning, then you can apply those, you know, to your unique situation here and now. Right. It also could be that.

Brad

That maybe the point is that when you have a major moral issue, you should kind of Consult a lot of different people, a lot of different perspectives. Right. Anything else on the. The Ikeda? Yeah. Colin, you say?

Student

I think also they use the word found when Isaac's found the sacrifice.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Similarities with chapter seven, when I forgot who it was. But he was also found the sacrifice before he got released.

Brad

Yeah. Good. And as we saw also in chapter seven, there's the physical binding, Right. Which is also mirrored and the stars and the, you know, sort of astronomical binding. But then maybe even more importantly, there's some sort of ethical, moral binding also going on there. Right. So it kind of the binding operates on different levels and we see that, you know, we see it literally here, but maybe there's also some, some sort of more metaphorical symbolic binding going on here too. Good, great. Right on. Move on to the next one then. All right, so let's shift to the Passover. Oh, by the way, this image that I put in here, this is one of my favorite artists, maybe my favorite artist, Caravaggio. This is Caravaggio's. Yeah, the binding of Isaac the Aeda. Yeah, Go ahead, get started, Scott. Sure.

48:47

Discussion: Passover Rituals, Unleavened Bread, and Divine Agency

Student

So the Passover, I guess like a brief summary before I go into what I was going to point out about. But we got plagues going on, we're in Egypt, Israelites are enslaved, the Pharaoh is no good, and the 10th plague is coming and it's going to wipe out the first sons. So there's speak of like, oh, like, in order to like save your first sons, you gotta like put the blood of the sacrificed lamb as like a substitute for the life of your first born son. Like that's inside the home. And something I was gonna point out was there's in it's verse 11 in the Exodus part, it's this part, it says in this manner you shall eat it with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hands. And I thought this was like really like shifting because previously, like sacrifice I found it's like, it's about order. Like we're like building altars or like for example, the king story, like, oh, you could have a son, but like to maintain order, like you eventually have to sacrifice the sun. ⚠

Student

But here it's like, oh, like we're doing this ritual right now, but we're about to book it, right? And it's like this exit or like escape and like that's like really different. Like, usually it's about like stability and like order and like maintaining like how life is. But here it's just like a, it's like a Disorder, I guess.

Brad

And it's in a hurry, right? Yeah, yeah, it's gotta. You gotta be ready to go. Yeah. Good. Great. Good observation. Yeah. Luke, this is not very related to

Student

that, but I just thought it really interesting. I was wondering, like, the reasoning for it. The God is, like, very, very adamant that the bread has to be unleavened.

Brad

So much emphasis on that.

Student

There's like a whole paragraph of him talking about the bread having to be unleavened. And I honestly don't even know what that means, first of all.

Brad

Sure, yeah.

Student

But it's so extreme that if you eat leavened bread, then you'll be cut off from Israel. They'll be, like, completely exiled. So I was just wondering, is there, like, a significance to that historically or. Or like.

Brad

It is very significant. It is very significant religiously, historically. It's also going to be significant for understanding the New Testament. And Jesus also talks about the leavening and the leavened bread and that sort of thing. Definitely significant. Let's talk about that for a minute. So what, Anybody make bread? Anybody like baked bread? Bakers? Yeah. Yeah. Yeast is the leaven, right? So you can make. There are other kinds of leaven, like baking soda and things, but they don't work so well. Right. Like, soda bread is like, you know. But really, I mean, yeast. Yes, I was talking about yeast here. So you make bread. So when you make bread, what's your process?

Student

I mean, I don't make bread.

Brad

Okay, all right. Anybody? What's the process? Yeah, don't you just, like.

Student

Like mix everything together and then put

Brad

it in the oven?

Student

Like, the yeast makes it rise up.

Brad

You can't just put it all together and then put it in the oven. You need another step. You have to let it rise. It takes time. Right. So like, the. What happens is yeast is, you know, yeast is a bacteria, is an organism. And when. When the yeast. Right. When you hydrate the yeast, it goes from being, you know, dormant to being alive. And then the yeast consumes the sugars in the. In the dough. And when it consumes the sugars, it produces. It produces alcohol. Right? And so that alcohol, when you smell fresh baked bread, you're smelling the alcohol that has, you know, evaporated from it. And alcohol has a very low boiling point, right? So then when the alcohol is produced, that's what causes it to rise, right? Because the alcohol wants to evaporate. And then when you put it in the oven, it evaporates real fast, which is why it rises fast. Right, but so you could mix it and then put it right in the oven, but it's not really going to rise. You got to let it. You got to let it do its thing. Right. ⚠

Brad

So let it have some time to ferment. So it kind of. I mean, why is there so much emphasis on it? That's still going to be a good question. Because there's a lot of emphasis on it, isn't it? But I think that the shortest, most obvious reason why it matters is back to this. Kind of related to Scott's point about haste. You got to be ready to go. There's no time to sit around and wait for the bread to rise. Right. You just got to make the bread and eat it, but don't have time for the bread to rise. Leavened. Maybe some more stuff going on there, but I think there's probably more to say here also about. Yeah, there's a lot more to say here. Anybody else? We jump Yeah,.

Student

Kind of like going off the emphasis

Student

on the lean bread and just the temples and everything. I feel like in this text, God is much more involved and, like, creates really harsh punishments for sacrifice when comparatively the other text is not necessarily like a punishment from the gods. And it's also not as invested in society as a whole. It's more like individual. Yeah, that comparison, really interesting.

Brad

So a lot more preference, right? Yeah. So not much concerned about the Egyptians and in their firstborn sons. Yep. So definitely some. Some preference here going Yeah,.

Student

Colin, I'm going to say also kind of talking about, like, the substitutionary sacrifice for the lamb for, like, the firstborn sons. I think it also kind of shows a lot about, like, communal liberation, how that through that sacrifice, the people that were slaves within Egypt were kind of turned into this nation. They're turned into more of a community through that kind of binding vow with God and sacrificing.

Brad

Okay, good. So thinking about the future and building. Building some sort of future. Building a. A future society. Yeah. Caroline,

Student

You use the phrase vicarious death.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

In the reading.

Student

And kind of like where the lamb

Student

dies as a substitute so that God won't kill my son, only someone else's son. Or like the Egyptians.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And it reminded me of Suna Sepa with the idea of as long as it's not me or someone I care about, I don't really care who it is. Which is like, just to me is a very selfish way of thinking and seeing the world. And I really. And Shreya, like how we talked about last class, where it's obviously not the right thing to do to sacrifice something else that something you care about won't die and like, it will benefit you. But it's harder to practice. It's harder to practice.

Brad

Shreya.

Student

In this type of situation, it's very easy to go on to pray on

Student

top of the lesson.

Brad

Yeah, great. There's an article we read last semester in my God self in society class about this kind of very point. It was actually mostly talking about Abraham and Isaac, but that the reason, back to Eva's point, that the reason that Abraham reacts immediately without hesitation in the case of Isaac, but, you know, protests a lot in the case of Sodom, Gomorrah is kind of on the shreya praya. I mean, obviously, you know, we're bringing terms in from the other tradition, but the same basic idea, Right. Is that he has a lot at stake personally. It's a personal. There's a personal issue there. Right. So according to theologian we read, then it's like Abraham sees Isaac as an extension of himself. So to protect him would be praya. Right. And so he's just being obedient there because otherwise he would be being selfish. Whereas when he's advocating for Sodom and Gomorrah, he has no praya. He has no interest in it at all. Right. So it doesn't benefit him at all. In fact, you could say that arguing with God is a little bit risky. Right.

Brad

So he's taking a risk and protesting against God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah even though he has nothing to gain from it. Right. He only has something to lose. So I think very, very good point, Caroline. Yeah, Eva.

Student

I was gonna say, like, I thought just like the putting up the blood on the doorways kind of just like enforces like God sees every thing in like God's presence because, like, it's like more like a visible sign. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely significant. And. And does it. Is it. I mean, at least the way it's told is because the spirit of death, the angel of Death. Right. Has to see that. So it's something. It's very sort of, you know, what if we don't put it on enough, you know, or what if it's. Yeah. What if your door frame is dirty or something? Yeah, good. Yeah. Scott. And then Iona. Sure.

Student

Going off of the lands blow on the door. It's kind of acts like almost like a shield. Like it's like blocking like. Like the scariness on the outside.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And tying that to like, like the purpose of the plague is like, I guess the Hope and what he tied to is, like, breaking the slave mentality.

Brad

And it's.

Student

I guess, like, maybe it makes sense that it's. It's like, the first sons. Because, like, by saving the first sons, like, that's the purpose of, like, the. The lamb's blood. Like, I guess, like, the goal is, like, all right, like, you're here. Like, you got through it. Like, the first sons are here, but now, like, for future generations. Like, the first son should not still be in Egypt. Like, you gotta. You gotta get out here.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

But, yeah.

Brad

Yep. Good. Yeah.

Student

I feel like the idea of, like,

Student

God,

Student

like, as a shield sort of speaks to, like, what we were talking about earlier, about how, like, in this text, like, God seems to be more, like, overarching and more powerful. Like, I feel like in, like, section 12 or section 13, it says, like. Like, I will execute the judgments.

Student

I am the Lord.

Student

And I feel like that just sort of shows, like, more, like, authority.

Brad

I mean, God is really the one that's taking the agency here and the action here. Right. That verse he pointed to, for I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. It's not just the firstborn humans, but the firstborn males of every household. And I will execute the judgments. Yeah. So. Yep. Good. So it's not God acting through somebody else, but God acting very directly. Good. Yeah.

Student

I think the use of the word like, execute in that is, like, very interesting. Like, I will execute the judgments because, like, killing someone is like an execution.

Brad

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yep, Yep, yep. So we got both of those meanings of that term. Yeah. In there. Good. Yeah. Luke.

Student

I think it's also kind of interesting that, like. Like, in the shruti, they kind of have, like, for suna sepa, I think it was.

Student

Right.

Student

He's the one that. Yeah. They have, like. He kind of becomes, like, this star that people look to, and they, like, kind of remember this story and they remember the lessons from this story.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Whereas, like, in this. In this story, in Exodus, like, God specifically tells them, like, how to, like, commemorate this. How to, like, remember this event.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And essentially, like, how to, like, be grateful for him liberating them. So he's like, this day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations, as a statue forever. He's like. It's like.

Brad

I don't know.

Student

It's just reinforcing the idea that he's like, that this version of God is morally authoritative in that he wants to be revered and, like, celebrated and respected for generations to come.

Brad

Yeah. It get. Most likely, it needs that little ego boost or something. Yeah. Yeah. And I think another thing that you're pointing out there, Luke, that I want to draw attention to is there's the way this particular story is told. It's both tight telling the story and also giving instructions of how to commemorate it. Right. So it's sort of telling you how to do the. It's like. You know what I'm saying? Right. So it's not just saying this is something that happened, and then later saying, let's have a ritual to commemorate that, but it's telling you how to commemorate it while telling the story. Right. So both. Yeah, both. Here's what happened and also here's what we should do and why we do what we do kind of thing. Yeah. Good. Anything else to add on this? This. This text. Move to Isaiah. Anybody? We don't just have to hear from our leaders. Our leaders done a great job, you know, Feel free to hear from everybody. Yes, Scott. ⚠

1:02:26

Discussion: The Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53) and Substitutionary Atonement

Student

So I found this story was interesting because typically, always, or at least so far, like, when we talk about sacrifices, we're talking about, like, firstborn sons, like in the Passover, like, all right, we need a lamb without blemish, and it's perfect. But here, like, it shows in, like, the. Isaiah says in verse, like, 14, that, like, the person was marred beyond human semblance and is formed beyond that of a child of mankind. So, like, that difference between, like, oh, we need this perfect sacrifice being like, oh, like, we need someone who's, like, barely looking human to, like, this is, like, our person to, like, give away.

Brad

Yeah, right. Yep.

Student

Going off that, I feel like I remember them talking about the servant being, like, a righteous human, like, a good person. It reminded me of Suna sepa being a brahmana and how, like, you need to. The sacrifices do mean something.

Brad

It's just.

Student

It's just in a different way. Not, like, by born cast or just being righteous.

Brad

It's just in a different way. Good. Yep.

Student

Caroline, the phrase with crushed in peace was used, like.

Brad

Yeah, yeah.

Student

That reminded me of last week's readings, you know, linking to, like, where the. There's no herb if there's not milk or. Yeah, but in last week's reading where you said, like, there's no. There's no creation without destruction, no matter what it is. And I feel like that's kind of been like, a running theme throughout everything. A little Bit it's like just the fact that, like, there's no creation without destruction.

Student

I feel like this story.

Brad

Yeah. Or that. That if our focus is on like a more just, you know, better future utopia in the future, that we have to make this sort of sacrifice now that's going to lead towards that. Yeah. Others. Yeah.

Student

Danny going off of what Caroline said with the words crushed and pierced, it reminded me when we talked about the dismemberment of the crusha and the specific words used through that similar, in a sense, like. Like, it kind of made me think

Student

back to when we were talking about

Brad

that in class and how it was like a dismembering. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah.

Student

I also think that the idea of like, being non dual is like the creation destruction. I also noted that they said, like, with his wounds we are healed. Like, I think it's interesting how there was like no healing about someone else, like, being harmed.

Brad

Yeah. Yeah, good. Good observation, Castilia.

Student

I think also someone said earlier in like the Abraham story, like, there's the emphasis on the fact that it's the relationship between like, the son and the father. And that's why there's like a level of like, duty that Abraham might feel to like, sacrifice Isaac or like that, that there was something important there. But with this, there is no relationship to anyone else. Like, it's just kind of this random guy that they feel is like. Like, you know, the one that gets to be like this. Like, I forgot how you worded it. The guilt offering, like, serve the money.

Student

But there's no relationship there.

Student

So I just thought that was interesting that like, you know, I kind of

Student

expected it to be like they would

Student

say that this is this random person, but wait, he's not. Like, he did all these things in his life, but there's just no mention of that. It's just that it is this random person. He was a good person, but that's all we know.

Brad

And that's it.

Student

And you just have to accept that. Like, I thought that was interesting and like, different from the two stories before

Student

where like, whatever the relationship is, the

Student

sacrifice is something that's exercised, whether it be like a specific son or just the firstborn sons in general.

Brad

Yeah, great. And it's also, on that point, it also. It's not clear what this. With this guy. All we know about him is he's good and then he suffers. Right. But it doesn't Please point out any place that contradicts us, but it doesn't seem like we know if he's sort of doing this voluntarily or. Or not. Right. What agency? Yes. Yeah.

Student

Anna, in verse seven, it says, he was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth. And like, I thought that was important. It reminded me of, like, when he opened his mouth and like, freed him from the sacrifice, but because he didn't open his mouth, that's what led him to the slaughter.

Brad

Very interesting. I didn't. Yeah. Great, great, great. Yeah. Kay.

Student

Kind of goes back to like, the relationship thing usually, like, and how that's usually emphasized. Also, all of the sacrifices that we've read about, we, like, know who they are, they have a name. We, like, understand certain things about them. This is like a nameless.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Just referred to as the suffering servant. It really takes away, like, any, like, human. It's like sacrifices humanity.

Brad

Yeah, right. Yep, Good point. Yeah.

Student

I also, this line, hunter reminded me of Naciketas and his sacrifice where it says, therefore, not this part, but therefore I will dvaita him a portion with the many, and he shall dvaita the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with trans. Transgressors. That part, that last part kind of reminds me of Naciketas and how he, like, kind of like confronts death with like, his. His knowledge. And Yeah, I mean, obviously had like, a very different outcome, but it's still. I. I just think that, like, his sacrifice or his like, death is kind of. Kind of embodies like a lot like all three of the sacrifices that we saw in the truth.

Brad

Okay, great. Yeah.

Student

Colin, I think it's also important to note that this, like, was written during the time of, like, the Babylonian act style. So again, kind of going off the topic of how it's a mysterious servant, it's nameless, you know, it could also be like a figure of hope for the people of the time, you know, kind of this, this atonement for the sense, that's kind of how a lot of it.

Brad

Atonement is a really important word here. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Eva. Yeah.

Student

I was thinking something like similar, how like, in the past, all the stories we talked about, it's like how parents will teach it to children and how, like, certain messages they're supposed to take away. Like with this one, I was kind of thinking, like, what would, like, a child think about this? Like, are they supposed to be the person that suffers? Are they supposed to thank them or something like that. But I think, like, hope is like, mainly the takeaway that I thought they would get from it.

Brad

Yeah. There's also Something. It's almost like celebratory suffering. Right? It's like suffering is. It's good, Right? So, yeah, I mean, but then, I mean, as you were saying that, I'm thinking, like, do I want my kid to be a suffering servant? Right. Do I want my kid to be absolutely a good righteous person that suffers all their life for the sake of others? I don't know if I want. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think?

Student

Kind of going off that too. It's like, almost like an offering. I think you can see that in a lot of ancient civilizations where they would offer themselves but also feel honored because you're doing it. The betterment of your culture and your people.

Brad

Yeah. Good. So I think a clear case of like, shreya without praya. Right? Yeah. So I mean, this, this suffering servant doesn't, as you've all pointed out, doesn't have a name. We don't really know anything about them, but certainly the celebr. The. The. The righteous suffering is celebrated. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

1:09:55

Closing Remarks and Podcast Preparation

Student

I think it's interesting that, like, we talk about this as a sacrifice, whereas, like in the other stories, like, it's someone giving like, something up or like, like self sacrifice or, like. Yeah, it's like almost like you have, like, knowledge of what's gonna happen, but for this servant, like, we have no idea if he did this to himself or like if his father gave him up. Like, we have no background on, like, how the sacrifice happened. So it's almost interesting that we call it a sacrifice.

Brad

Yes. Well, yeah, that's a great point to end on something you could tackle in your podcast. Right. Point out that the word sacrifice doesn't come up in this passage. I don't believe. Right. And so there doesn't seem to be a ritual. There doesn't seem to be a sacrifice. And yet I've put it in together with all of these other ritual sacrifices and. Yeah. So what do we do with all that? I look forward to your podcast. Really like you to tackle Upa Samhar and Samban Baya. I look forward to it. And you can leave the tables here.