THEO 1432: The Religious Quest
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Aitareya Brāhmaṇa (7:13-18)

02/05/2026 · Tue/Thu 12:00-1:15 PM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This class session explores the transition from physical ritual sacrifice to the power of the 'word' and internal realization through the myth of Sunahsepa found in the Brahmana literature. The lecture begins with a review of the relationship between science (pratyaksha and anumana) and scripture (shabda), emphasizing that theological interpretation should not contradict empirical reality or the laws of thermodynamics. The core discussion centers on the narrative of King Harishchandra, who vows his son Rohita to the god Varuna but repeatedly delays the sacrifice until a substitute, Sunahsepa, is purchased. Students analyze the character of Sunahsepa, a middle child sold by his parents, who achieves liberation (moksha) not through physical escape but through the recitation of sacred hymns (samhitas) and the agency of speech. The session concludes with an exploration of the 'Three Debts' (Tri-Rena) that every human carries—to parents, ancestors, and teachers—and how these obligations relate to the pursuit of an ethical life and the ultimate goal of liberation.

⚡ Key Takeaways

  • Theological interpretation of sacred texts must be grounded in a way that does not contradict scientific laws, such as the conservation of energy or entropy.
  • The story of Sunahsepa illustrates a shift in Vedic thought from external ritual sacrifice to the internal power of sacred speech and knowledge.
  • Sunahsepa represents the human condition of being 'bound' by circumstances beyond one's control, yet finding agency through the 'word.'
  • Moksha, or liberation, is interpreted in this context as being freed from the 'triple bonds' of biological, moral, and social limitations.
  • A myth is defined as a psychological metanarrative that helps humans understand first principles, existential purpose, and obligations to others.
  • The 'Three Debts' (Tri-Rena) consist of obligations to parents, ancestors, and teachers, which must be acknowledged to live an ethical life.
  • Ancestors are defined not just biologically but as those who shaped the world we inhabit, including historical figures and the builders of society.
  • The character of Vishwamitra acts as a spiritual father figure, demonstrating that spiritual adoption and mentorship can supersede biological bonds.
  • Sacrifice (yajna) in the Brahmanas involves the tension between the value of what is given up and the necessity of fulfilling a cosmic or divine vow.
  • The 'seer' (rishi) is one who possesses direct perception, which includes both seeing and hearing the truth of the Vedas through the five senses.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Meditation and Transition

Brad
Alrighty. Let's take a moment and put everything away and transition from whatever you were doing before. Just take a moment to be still and present.
Student
It.
Brad
Let's take a breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out. Word. Alrighty.
Student
Alice.
Brad
Are you Alice? Sorry, what's your name? Beside Aiden? Yes. Oh, sorry.
1:34

Attendance and Administrative Check-in

Student
Hannah.
Brad
Hannah. I'm so sorry. Are you missing Alice and Felipe? Might be. Might have dropped. Nathan. Anybody's name? I didn't call. Just kidding. It was a very funny joke. All right, let's take a moment and tackle the quiz. Go ahead and just keep it face down. I mean, you can look at what's on the back. I guess.
Student
It.
2:47

In-Class Quiz and Assessment

Brad
Coming around here. Yeah. Go ahead and flip them over. Let's get started. If you're not sure about your number, ask me.
Student
It's. It's.
Brad
Maybe keep your eyes on your own paper, please.
Student
It's. It, It's it. It's.
Brad
There's multiple right answers for 14. Just one answer will be fine. I think. Four correct answers. Great. Everybody had enough time? Good. Elliot. All right, why don't you pass them forward, please? Oh, try to keep them face up so that they're all facing the same. Just make yours face the same direction as the other ones, please. No cell phones. Just a reminder. It does say in the syllabus that if I see you using your cell phone during class, you lose credit for the day. Avoid that. Thank you. All right, let's. I have them all. I'll go over them quickly. Question yajna just point out question one says in one complete sentence. Seems like that was overlooked by the previous section. So question two. Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, I feel like question two was a good question because, you know, like 10% of the class got it right, which, you know, I don't know. What does that mean? It's a true false, though. So is that a good sample or not? yajna what the. This is an important question, right?
11:18

Lecture: Ancient Mythical Creation Hymns and the Rigveda

Brad
So in order to understand the ancient mythical creation hymns from the Rigveda samhita, it's important for students to bracket everything we know about modern science and cosmogony, such as the laws of conservation and entropy and theories like the Big Bang. Is that true or false? That is very false. Absolutely false. From day one on the opening lecture, right, I went over very meticulous scientific understanding of pratyaksha, Right. And how we experience the world, how sense data comes in through our eyes and gets, you know, produced as a phenomenon in our head. In that chapter for Tuesday, I specifically gave the equation for the conservation of energy. I specifically gave the equation for entropy, Right. The second law of thermodynamics, and talked about the Big Bang. We went over the pramanas, right? pratyaksha and anumana, as I explained in my class, is basically science, right? So, but shruti or shabda, the third brahmana it reveals something different. It's not in contradiction to science. It's not in contradiction to what we see or logically, reason, and it can't be in contradiction. So if it seems to.
Brad
If your interpretation of the text contradicts your experience of the world, your experience of science and logic and reason, I mean, logic, okay. We can make mistakes in logic, right? And we can make mistakes in. We can make mistakes in science too. But generally speaking, if your interpretation of the text requires that you ignore science, check your interpretation, right? Probably. Probably something else there. So hopefully no one will miss that next time. What does Naciketas Mandukya tail or dog's penis? Yeah. Four kinds of sacred texts within the nastika tradition. So in order shruti, smriti, itihasa and I gave you puranas And which one is this one? This is shruti Yes, this is shruti. Yeah. And so then looking at the shruti, there's various kinds of the four parts of the shruti, four parts of the veda, and those in order. The one we read for Tuesday, which is samhita, and the one for today is brahmana, and the one for then aranyaka, which we're not really reading, kind of. And then the one for Tuesday is a upanishads Right. So we're basically going in order of those. Of those.
Brad
King Harishchandra immediately fulfills his vow to Varuna without delay. No. Yes. He first says, let's wait 10 days, and then let's wait till his teeth come in and let's wait till his teeth fall out, wait till more teeth come in. A lot about teeth. And then wait till he gets invested with his armor and then he's basically out of time. So the kid runs off. Right? Fatherhood. Fatherhood only biological, or is it also through adoption? Not sure about that one.
Student
Adoption.
Brad
Both. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you've got. You got a really shitty dad here, right? I mean, at least one who's willing to sell his son, right? To be sacrificed. And then he's like, actually, I'll kill him too, right? If you want me to. If you give me more cows. I mean, pretty shitty dad, right? And then so. But then ultimately he becomes the son of Vishwamitra. Right. So he's adopted by Vishwamitra. So sort of the spiritual adoption or. Yeah, functional adoption. May not exactly use that word, but definitely an adoption. And then myth. What is a myth? At least a few answers in the text about myth. What are any of the things in the chapter about myth? What is a myth? Yeah.
Student
Something you hear is like a kid and teacher, an adult show where they understand.
Student
You tell.
Brad
I was really proud of that line. Did you like that line? I thought it was pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I was pretty happy with that. So a myth is like a story that you hear when you're a kid and then again as a teenager, and then again as an adult. You don't really understand it until you become a parent and start telling your kids. Yeah, I think that's. Should publish that one day. Yeah. Other definitions of myth. Yeah, Hannah.
Student
It's a psychological metanarrative.
Brad
Yes.
Student
And it helps us understand the first principles of philosophy.
Brad
Wow. Nailed that. Oh, my goodness. That's such a good answer. Yeah, absolutely. A psychological metanarrative that helps us understand ourselves, our role in the world, our obligations to one another and to God, meaning and purpose. It's exactly what myths do. Yeah. Great. Any other answers? Yeah. What we believe in without believing, we believe in it. It's a really funky way of saying it, isn't it? Yeah. So that's Panikkar and a couple of you. Jaden. At least somebody else was in yet. Yeah, we read a chapter at Panikkar a couple of years ago. Good. Yep. Awesome. Well, let's. Why don't we take a few minutes in groups just to kind of get everybody chatting a little bit. One thing I should have mentioned is that this. This isn't exactly the. I mean, this is not the full text of this brahmana. These are all kind of abbreviated chapters, I think maybe two Abbreviated. But, you know, I can only give you so much, I guess. ⚠
17:53

Small Group Discussion: Archetypes and the Story of Sunahsepa

Brad
But yeah, I'd like you to just chat with your team leaders, maybe team leaders, kind of give an idea of what you're planning to chat about and then see if you get some insights from your. From your teammates. Yeah, words take. I don't know, take a few minutes.
Student
Something.
Student
Like.
Brad
So.
Student
How do you have, like, all.
Student
Why not? I get a hundred.
Student
Sam.
Brad
Characters. Slowing down a little bit.
Student
It.
Student
All right, go.
25:46

Class Discussion: Ritual, Sacrifice, and Moksha

Brad
How about we start by hearing from our leaders and then. And then we'll open it up. Yeah, Cooper, get us started.
Student
So you kind of compared it to the Hymns from chapter six. And in chapter six, like, it almost makes sacrifice feel, like, elegant in a way, with Purusha being dismembered. But then, like, chapter seven, like, forces us to come face to face with, like, something so different, where it's like a father sacrificing his son. And, like, that filicide is like, a huge contrast. Like, it is obviously not elegant as, like, chapter six.
Brad
So a lot of emphasis. I mean, emphasis on both chapters about sacrifice, but in very different. Seems like something very different is being said here, right? Yeah, yeah.
Student
You mentioned the reading about how we're moving, moving from ritual to spirit. Is there any connection to that? When you were talking about, like, you memorize the text first and then you, like, get into the philosophical meaning. Is that kind of what it means?
Brad
I mean, you can see. Good question. So you can see that Sunahsepa was, like, tied to the post, right? He's about to get his throat slit. He doesn't have chance to Google the scriptures and find out, you know, or read from something, right? But he begins to recite, and what he's reciting is the samhitas. And so he knows which hymns to recite, right? So he uses his discernment to know which ones to recite. No one tells him that. Right. Anything. And he knows them from memory. He has them memorized. So there is something liberative about that. Right. So knowing the fact that he had. If he didn't have them memorized, then he would have been, you know, screwed. Right? Yeah. So really important point. Yeah. I had a question. So, like, the God insists that the king sacrifices his son, but I was just confused.
Student
Like, in the end, it can hit,
Student
like, there's a lot of negotiation.
Brad
Then it ends up just being kind of like this random person that they were able to find. So, like, what in the. Like, why is so insistent on the sun if it could have been anyone? My initial thought is like. Like, it has to cost the king something.
Student
But, yes, guess what does it cost him?
Brad
It costs him cows. Right? So, yeah, so. So, yeah, that's an important point. Right. So then for the. For the Mimamsakas, to sacrifice means to give something up. And what you give up has to be valuable to you. We'll see that in the next reading for Tuesday. The. The person who's sacrificing is not giving up really valuable things, kind of giving up worthless things, actually. And so here we've got Harishchandra. The thing that he's asked to sacrifice is too valuable to him. So he's like, maybe there's some way I can find a substitute. Right. And then it turns out that this substitute seems to be more valuable to Varuna than his son. Right. So he's like, what matters to me, Varuna is, you know, whatever you're giving to me, not how valuable it is to you. saguna, something, you know, could be. Lots of different ways to read that. What does it mean? Is not as easy, but it's important. Yeah.
Student
Hannah, my group, we kind of was talking about that, how at each stage, it felt like each different person was, like, making an excuse as to why they couldn't, like, fulfill the vow.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And so I feel like that kind of goes back to how each person, like, represents an archetype. And ultimately all these people are trying to cheat the debt of existence. But then with.
Brad
Yeah, yeah. He.
Student
Through his reciting of prayer and that knowledge and insight is, like, how he sees himself representing moksha. But it's not anything that's external or materialistic. It's like his own knowledge and insight.
Brad
Yeah. Good. So one of the things I mentioned earlier in the semester is that moksha means different things to different schools, means different things to different people. Right. It always means liberation. But liberation from what? Liberation to what? How does that liberation happen? And so now here we're seeing that liberation take a particular. A particular way. Yeah.
Student
Lucas, we were just kind of talking about Sunahsepa. Like, three bindings.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
Like Arthur, karma and dharma.
Student
Like, I think you broke it down at the end. Like, biological, moral and social.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And when you, like, just look at those, like, you see yourself as, like,
Student
the victim, but then it's like, through,
Student
like, seeing the truth or like, the word, like the God that you become, like a seer.
Brad
We thought that was pretty interesting. Yeah. Good. And so that word seer, I mean, I don't love it. Right. Because seer means eyes. Right. But here, seer really means also hearing. Right. So direct perception. Right. So we could take. I mean. I mean, the word means seer. So. But I just want us to interpret seer as broadly as possible. All the five senses. Yeah.
Student
Yeah.
Brad
Great. Samuel. Sorry.
Student
I was talking a lot about, like, how most of their actions are driven by desire. So, like, how this whole story starts out in the first place, is the king desiring a son.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And then for that to, like, go through with the sacrifice. And then when they do finally get a son, Rohita, his desire to live and not be sacrificed, obviously, so he runs away.
Brad
And then
Student
the exchange for cows and desire for Sunahsepa. I think I'm saying that right, that's fine for the exchange and then to go through with his killing more cows and then in the end soon gets killed. His desire to live drives him to pray and call out to God in order to, I guess, achieve liberation.
Brad
Yeah. Yeah. Great, thank you. Yeah. Devin. Yeah.
Student
Our group is also going back to a little before talking about the three bonds and how like every figure, I guess, kind of represented like one of those limitations of our existence. Like, like Rokita, obviously, like, he's bound by his body and by his biology. Like, he didn't pick, he didn't choose to like, be this sacrifice. But now that he's alive, like, he has to go grapple with the fact that that's what he is. And I think similarly with the Father, the King, he's, you know, bound by his like, society and like his moral, like, obligations. Like, he's in the beginning, he's like, I want a son. Why don't I have a son? Like, I'll do anything to get a son.
Brad
Right?
Student
And I think that the whole point of Sunahsepa's character is like, he's also bound in many ways. But like, the way he escapes it, like, he doesn't try to escape it like everyone else. He like, stays true to like, what he knows to be right. And like, he achieves liberation because he sticks with what he believes is right.
Brad
Right. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, he doesn't run away like Rohita does. Although it's not entirely clear whether he has the option to run away like Rohita does. But. But nevertheless he can't. It's only. He just does what he can do, which is speech. Yeah. Hey, Ching.
Student
Yeah. Like, like our team was actually kind of like discussing a lot about, you know, different definitions of the myths because like. Because like, because it just changes like. Like those definitions changes our like, perspective. Yeah, like, how to view those myths. Because like, we just think, we used to think, like, oh, those myths are just like some made up stories to like kind of like full kids or like, just use them to discipline kids. But it's actually like a lesson to sort of like help you to understand yourself. But also like the world beyond just like physical matter and like, you know, just science. So we think that's like very important, you know, to set up like the foundation to understand like theology. ⚠
Brad
Yeah, absolutely. Right. So going back to, to what Dylan said on Tuesday, like, it's important to read these myths as saying something about who, who we are right now and what we're supposed to do what our obligations and things are. Right. So those first principles. Right. And yeah, whether the story is true or not doesn't really matter. What matters is, does it convey a particular truth that helps us understanding ourselves and our role in the world? Great. Yeah. Cooper.
Student
We all kind of noted that Sunahsepa was specifically noted as the middle child.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And we didn't know if there was, like, a deeper meaning other than the fact that, like, the mom saved the younger one and the dad saved the older one. There's some, like, significant, like, I don't know, deeper hidden meaning behind that.
Brad
I mean, bro just has shitty parents. I don't know what to say, you know, I mean, like, yeah, Mom's like, sure, you can have one of my kids, but not this one. Right. And Dad's like, sure, you can have one of my kids, but not this one. And then he's just like, bruh. You know, like. Yeah, yeah.
Student
So, yeah, if like, a myth can
Student
be described as like a psychological meta narrative, as a. Almost like a North Star.
Brad
Yes.
Student
Do some people, like, is a myth an anchor for some people?
Brad
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, I would want to say that the text is kind of the anchor, Right. But then the meaning. So the meaning is kind of like the North Star, right? Yeah. So, like, the meaning that you take away from it, I mean, it could be the text itself, right. I don't know. The anchor and the North Star, they're not the same, but they're. They could refer to the same things. But, yeah, absolutely. Yes. And here, you know, part of the reason I chose that North Star is because this is, you know, talking about the stars, right? The. The triple bonds there, the three bonds, three ways that he's bonded, the three ties on his body, those also correspond to the three stars of the constellation, right? Ursa Minor, Little Dipper, whatever you want to call it. And one thing that I actually didn't know until last night when I was prepared, prepping for class, but Rohita. Rohit means red, reddish. It kind of, I think in this context can refer to the dawn. Right. So, like, when the sun comes up, the sky is reddish, Right. Doppler effect and stuff. ⚠
Brad
And as the sun comes up, those three stars disappear one at a time, right. So they're always visible because that's, you know, because they're at the poles, but they. But you can't see them during the day because the sun comes up. Right. And so as the sun is coming up, then those three bonds, those three things disappear. And I don't know how well it came through in the beginning of the text or not, but also this. There's so many parallels, so many corollaries between this story and Greek myths. Greek, Greek stories about the same group of stars. And so, so yeah, yeah, Yeah. So there's a lot of debate over soma in terms of like what. So what we know about it is it's a plant, right? So it's a plant. It's a super important plant that is mentioned very frequently in the samhitas, very frequently in the Brahmanas. It plays a very important role within. It's kind of seen as like the most supreme thing, one of the most supreme things that you can sacrifice.
Brad
Scholars, you know, don't know exactly what plant it is, but some things that we can kind of piece together from context, it seems like if you're familiar with milkweeds. Are you familiar with milkweed? If you, I mean, as the name implies, like milkweed is important for the life cycle of the monarch butterflies and they migrate. They. yajna milkweed, if you, if you like break a milkweed plant, then this, the stuff that comes out of it is like milky and mucousy and like sticky. Right? It's exactly like semen, basically. And that's significant, right? So it's, it's corollary to semen. And also it seems like if you ingest it seems like it's like low key hallucinogen, so. Or some sort of psychotropic properties. So we don't know exactly what this plant is, but we know it has those properties. Right. And yeah, here, I don't know why is it mentioned that he knows how to press it properly? I guess maybe the point could just be he is well versed in the vedas, right? In the same way that he like knew the samhitas off the top of his head, he'd already memorized them. ⚠
Brad
So he knows how to do these things which are necessary for ritual sacrifice. So he's an expert in the sacrifice. He's not just a. He's not a slacker. Right? So one of the things we'll see, I think we've already seen it here, but we will continue to see it, is that, you know, a tension between the four Varnas, right? Castes, the four, you know, functions within society and whether one is a member of a particular Varuna because you win the birth lottery or something, or because of who you are and what you do. Right. So then is it form or function? And so here he is a brahmana Right. Meaning Srinasipa. But he. He's not a slacker brahmana Right. He's some. He's somebody who knows the samhitas. He's done his homework, literally, and he knows how to do the rituals and those sort of things. Right. So I think that's one of the things that we could take as important from that detail. Yeah. Devin? Yeah. ⚠
Student
I was just almost wondering if it's like a commentary kind of, because when he goes and he says, like, a. Will be more. Will be like, better than a Cassatra.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
It's.
Student
I don't know, it's kind of interesting because, like, obviously there's a lot of discourse surrounding, like, cast and that idea, but.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And then obviously, soon as, like, ends up being a hero of the story and able to, like, connect with the gods and be liberated and he. He's a brahmana so he's technically, like, above Rohita. I was just kind of like.
Student
I don't know.
Student
It's just kind of interesting to, like, see that parallel and be like, oh, well, he clearly was able to, like, escape his bonds and.
Brad
Yep. Okay. Yeah. Good. Yep.
Student
Samuel, I just had a quick question. After Sh. shiva like, does the pressing of the soma, it says that he sits on the lap of. And I was just wondering, is that like a God or like some kind of.
Brad
Vishwamitra is the. The priest in this case? Yeah. So he's the priest. And. And he. When he sits on his lap, I mean, it is a weird detail, but I think we should take that just as a sign of, like, intimacy. Right. In the way that you'd sit in your father's lap or. I mean, they're both adults, so it's a little awkward, but. But I think that's the ending, right? That it's not just. He doesn't just stand beside him. He's like, sort of like giving him a hug, you could say. Right. So, like, they're. Yeah. So there's something. Something intimate about the. The bond. Yeah.
Student
Hannah, I understand that, like, Tsunashe using his intellect to reach moksha is like,
Student
they went from ritual to speech.
Student
But if Sunna shaiva is the archetype of the human condition and he's like, representing that we find ourselves tied to the stake of existence, owing a debt we did not choose for us, what is that debt that we did not choose?
42:29

Lecture and Dialogue: The Three Debts (Parents, Ancestors, Teachers)

Brad
Excellent. Excellent. Well, let me just roll into the lecture. I was going to give this later, but let's do it now. It's a good answer. To that question. So within. Within the Hindu. Within Hindu orthodoxy. Within. Yeah, the philosophical tradition, it said that every human person is. Or every adult in particular, that as an adult, you have three deaths. Tri. Rena. Three deaths. And everybody has a debt to our parents, a debt to our ancestors, and a debt to our teachers. And why don't. Before we. Before I say more about it, why don't you get in your teams and chat about these three debts? Do you feel like you have any debt to these three? Oh, I want to clarify. Ancestors, Right. Ancestors does not mean your biological ancestors. Right. It doesn't mean your grandparents and great grandparents and that sort of thing. Ancestors in our context today would include people like George Washington. Right. Or Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King. Would certainly include the founders of Boston College. May even include. I think it would also include, like, the construction workers who built Stokes hall and built.
Brad
Laid the carpet in this room and people who made the chairs that you're sitting in. Right. So sort of the creators of this world that we're in. Right. So the human creators of the world that we're in. And. Yeah. So why don't you chat about those three debts? Do you feel any obligation or debt to. To these three groups? And if so, you know, how. What is expected of. You know, normally, if we think about, like, you know, if I owe Max a million bucks or something, then I'm in debt to him, and Max really wants me to pay him a million bucks back. Right. You don't want me to do something else. Right. You want me to want your money? So here. Does that mean that or does that, you know, what are different responses to debt? Cool. Take a few minutes and then we'll hear from. Love to hear from everybody.
Student
It.
Student
Ra.
Student
Like,
Student
I know you're right.
Brad
Like, yeah.
Student
Because of what they. But, like, everyone is.
Student
Yeah, everyone.
Brad
All right. What do you think? Yeah. Cooper.
Student
So we were talking about how you probably agree with ancestors and teachers the most because you make, like, a conscious effort to get dvaita and, like, to learn and, like, you're constantly benefiting from the things that your ancestors did. But in terms of parents, we kind of found that one a little harder to agree with because, like, you didn't choose to be here. And, like, for example, like, suna shape. Oh, like, I don't know who would be considered his parents, like, at the end of the story, like, obviously the priest, but then, like, does he still owe a debt to his original father and mother? Like, I feel like he shouldn't. How they treated him.
Brad
So. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. I'd say he didn't owe them anything. Yeah, we.
Student
We agreed that with all three of these, like, there, that we can see how, like, there would be debt owed to them or, like, we have a debt to them, but we couldn't decide on, like, what does that mean? Like, what does that debt mean? Like, I think we all thought of it more of, like, we understand that there would be, like, gratitude to these people in our lives. And then we thought, like, well, specifically for the ancestors and teachers, like, maybe that debt is to, like, honor what they've done for us or what they've built and what they've dvaita us, and then to pass that on to, like. Like, to pass it on to the future.
Brad
Okay. So not necessarily repaying them, paying them back, but paying it forward. Yeah, good. Yeah.
Student
Well, yeah, we kind of thought about ancestor debt as, like, the interest you pay is, like, continuing that, like, lineage of, like, creating a new debt for, like, your next generation. So, like, instead of, like, just living in the world and, like, you know, doing whatever, you kind of have to, like, make an effort to create a new debt for the people both, you know, that are coming after you. So, like, advancing the world in some way to, like, create yet more debt. Like, that's just the idea of, like, an infinite cycle of, like, continuing to advance the world and making it better and whatever that looks like, to continue that debt, like, that's your payment. ⚠
Brad
So paying it to the next generation the way. Yeah, good. Jane. Yeah, I kind of said something similar.
Student
Like, taking the knowledge that's given to
Brad
us and, like, how do we kind of utilize that to better ourselves and others? Like. Like, they said, like, paying. Ryan made a good point, too. Like, it's not like that we owe them something.
Student
It's more that we owe it to ourselves.
Student
Do better.
Brad
Okay.
Student
Yeah, Good.
Brad
Yeah. I'm just curious.
Student
Like, everyone's saying, like, conserving perspective. Kind of like parents, ancestors and teachers owe a debt to them. But, like, for ancestors, would that consider, like, I guess, like I said, figures
Brad
in, like, American history, they're, like, more
Student
looked out upon, like Robert E. Lee or someone that is, like, owing that to him technically.
Student
Because he's an ancestor.
Brad
Yeah. So just because somebody's, like, dead doesn't make them an ancestor. Right. And so. So, yeah, I think Robert E. Lee would be a good example. It's like, you know, so then ancestor may be more of a matter of perspective. Right. So if you look back at this person and see them as an exemplar, somebody who did great Things somebody who you want to emulate, then they're an ancestor for you. Right. And so might, you know, I mean, there are people who see Robert E. Lee as exactly that. Right. So important point. So then who we kind of choose to be our ancestors, choose to emulate. There's a lot at stake there. Yeah, yeah. Eduardo.
Student
Yeah, I was thinking about it. It's like, to me, like, ancestors in that context. It's who directly impacted and made the world that I'm in now. So, like, for example, me, like, you know, I'm not impacted by, you know, Napoleon, God knows how many years ago. Like, he didn't really do anything to, like, you know, be. Make me what I am now, where I am now. But, like, you know, obviously, like, George Washington had some role to play where I am now.
Brad
Right.
Student
So it didn't directly influence me in some way then. Like, I don't really owe them a debt, nor do I pay that debt forward.
Brad
Okay. Yeah. So we owe differing debts to differing folks. Yeah.
Student
I'm just curious, like, say, maybe on
Student
the other hand, like, robbery, let me know what not to do.
Brad
So is that. Could that be seen as, like, something like that?
Student
Because you technically, like, impacted our history, but in a bad way.
Brad
So we learn. I certainly agree with that, but I don't think that it enters into the, you know, like, we don't owe a debt to them, like you said. Yeah,
Student
I'm getting confusing debt versus, like, learning.
Brad
But debt really implies that you. You owe something. Right? So. So, yeah. So to what sense do we. Do we owe something? Yeah. Devin?
Student
Yeah, I think just the idea of debt and, like, the idea that, like, everyone owes something to someone, so kind of really strong because it's like, no one got to where they are alone. And, like, you need to, like, acknowledge, like, all these people. But also at the same time, it is hard to, like, say ancestors because, like, there are bad people or, like, your parents can be bad or, like, you can have bad teachers. So, like, I guess part of the debt is probably, like, acknowledging, like, who actually, like, had a good impact on you and, like, how you, like, continue that.
Brad
Yeah, good.
Student
Just make it, like, surface level, like, kind of stupid.
Student
Like, I just don't know why, like,
Student
the word debt is used because I feel like when I think of debt, like, that's almost like a negative connotation. Like, I don't want to, like, be indebted to someone.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
Why wouldn't it be something like three gratitudes? Like, I feel like when we're talking about this, like, My parents, ancestors and teachers. Like, it's like, we were talking about, like, it's the acknowledgment of gratitude and, like, remembrance of them, like, not letting their legacy, like, be forgotten. Like, why is it that.
Brad
Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. There's definitely a negative connotation with. With debt. Yeah.
Student
Lucas, we were just thinking about, like,
Student
we agree with most of them, like,
Brad
how you might have dealt with them,
Student
but we were just, like, wondering, like,
Student
how do you measure that?
Student
Like, how do you measure, like, determine, like, your ancestors that impacted you and,
Student
like, how much do you owe them?
Student
And like, we were, like, thinking, like,
Student
it's kind of, like, unattainable or, like, it would consume your life to be
Student
able to, like, pay back debt to everyone. And how do you, like, prioritize this day in your life?
Brad
Yeah, I mean, those are all going to be real questions. Yeah. Gina.
Student
I feel like were all, like, here because people helped us along the way. Like, like, why would you spend your life trying to, like, repay what you are Kind of reiterating when he said, but, like, like, yeah, more like gratitude. Like, I would be here for my parents, but also, like, I was give. Like, I was. I'm lucky enough to be here because of them. Like, I feel like it could just, like, send you into a crazy spiral trying to, like, figure out how can I repay them and everyone in your life. ⚠
Brad
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Student
I feel like it's a little bit. Especially with parents, as we talked in the group, it's a little bit controversial from the point, like, I. I didn't ask them to bring me to this world.
Brad
Right. Right.
Student
So why should I have some debt if that is considered, like, I asked something and I need to do something in return. Obviously, from the moral and ethic point, we return in some, like, a lot to our parents because we understand us, like, as humans, as somebody with the brain and intellectual that we, like, need to repay in. In any way we can, but not, like, without pressure. We just naturally do it because we
Brad
understand it, because we want to.
Student
I would like.
Student
I'm also confused with the debt, because that is something I ask it and I need to return.
Brad
Right.
Student
Especially, like, with teachers.
Brad
Yes.
Student
I kind of, like, if I chose to be in this class, I ask you to teach me. Right. And then I can, like, I. I need to return something, like my knowledge or my progress and some stuff, because
Student
I asked for that.
Student
Same as ancestors, we kind of, like, expect them to do something for us, and then we need to return. But his parents, this is the most important. Confusing for me, like, you see, it's something I do.
Brad
Yeah. Yeah. Because. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, Good. Samuel.
Student
When I think. I think a lot about, like, at least from the ancestral point, a lot about, like, history. So, like, stuff like the civil rights movement or like, the world wars or just, like, things throughout history that impacted where we are today. I feel like we do technically owe it to them to not make the same mistakes in the past that will set us back to even. Like, how. Set us back farther than what it was before. And, like, we just owe it to them or the people before us to create a better future for not only ourselves, but also future generations.
Brad
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Good.
Student
I like the idea that, like, kind of everyone's saying about, like, for teachers, the way to, like, pay the debt would be to, like, continue teaching like, the younger generations and. And like, ancestors, is to, like, make the world around you a better place so that, like, the future generations have a debt to pay to you. But for parents, like, going with the idea that we do owe a debt to our parents would. Is that, like, debt defined as in terms of paying it, like, continuing the bloodline or, like, how. Like, how do we kind of deal with that?
Brad
Yeah, good question. So, I mean, the most. One of the most common ways to, you know that that debt is regarded as paid is by having kids. Right. So then. So the debt that we owe to our parents isn't just the fact of being born, although, you know, that's part of it. But also, I don't know, didn't your parents make lots of sacrifices for you to be here? Maybe they're still making sacrifices for you to be here. Yeah. So then if you. What. What do your parents. Do you feel any kind of debt, you know, for that sacrifice? And if so, you know, what do your parents want or not want? Yeah, the way I thought of it, like.
Student
Like you said, like, people built this building, like, your debt to them is keeping in good shape, not, like, throwing trash everywhere. Stuff like that.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And then, like, parents is a little different, but, like, the way I think of it is, like, they raise you with certain values, and they want you to pass that on and kind of like, like, in public, if you act, like, really weird, like, that goes back to them, they're going to be like, you didn't raise him right. So I feel like acting the way that, like, they want you to, in a way, and kind of honoring those
Student
values is a good way.
Student
That's, like, the type of debt I see.
Brad
I. Yeah, I think Most folks agree with you on that. Yeah. Tana.
Student
I also think that, like, I know money.
Student
Money isn't, like, a big value in
Student
life, I guess, but it's still important that, like, once, like, I'm older and I, like, have the financial stability, I would want to be able to, like, provide for my parents, like, so they don't have to work or, like, repay
Student
them in that way.
Brad
Okay. So when you were a baby, they fed you and clothed you and took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself. And then when they get older, maybe you feel some obligation to kind of return that. Favorite. Yeah, Hannah.
Student
I feel like also when we're talking about, like, the sacrifices that our parents have made to, like, get us here, like, to Boston College, then my debt to them is to, like, make use of that education and, like, value that education and then hopefully, like, bring that forward into, like, whatever career I pursue.
Brad
Yeah. Great. Ben. To, like, balance off the ancestor thing. Like, something I'm probably a little confused about is, like, I feel like these people are, like, deemed.
Student
These ancestors. Ancestors are, like, deemed ancestors because they
Brad
did something, like, good and, like, contributed
Student
to society, but without being asked to do so.
Brad
Like, they're valued because, like, they were
Student
brave enough to, like, be that person,
Student
to do that and change society.
Brad
But it wasn't like society as a
Student
whole demanded that specific person to do it. So, like, that's what I like. When it comes to debt. Like, the same thing. Talking about, like, parents, it's, like, it's not specifically, like, ask society. We asked that specific person to do so.
Brad
They were just, like, in the position
Student
to do it, and they chose to do it themselves.
Brad
Okay, I hear that. Yep. Yep.
Student
I'm just kind of curious as to where maybe debt, like, for the gods
Student
falls in this, because obviously that is
Student
a huge role, like, within the Hindu philosophical school. And, like, even in the text that we read, like, that's how soon, like, found liberation. He was able to transcend, like, those relationships and make contact with the gods.
Brad
Yeah. So, I mean, and interesting there. Gods isn't up there. Right. So we have an obligation to parents or to repay that debt to parents, teachers, and ancestors. But, you know, and certainly some would add, God's up there, but it's not up there. Yeah. Yeah. He ching.
Student
Oh, yeah. So, like, I think there's, like, one question that, you know, I have, like, when I was discussing with my crew members that, you know, like, parents and ancestors, like, in some way, like, they're teachers as well. Like, for example, very, like, Young, like, you have no understanding about your environment, no understanding about the world. Like, they're the ones that's, you know, kind of teaching you, like, how to speak, how to walk. Like, they teach you that as well. And also, like, ancestors that are like, teachers, like, kind of like some of the other. Other people said, you know, they kind of teach us what to do and what not to do. So I'm just kind of, like, you know, very. Just kind of curious about, like, you know, like, when you have, like, those kind of overlap, like, how do you kind of maybe like, categorize those deaths? ⚠
Brad
Okay, good. Yeah. I mean, we there. They overlap a lot. Like, if we talk about, like, Martin Luther King, is he an ancestor or a teacher? I mean, he could be. He could be both, right? For some people, he could be all three. Yeah.
Student
Boris, my question, especially with parents, is, like, the story we read, you know, very nicely answers the question of what if you have bad parents?
Brad
And then.
Student
Because he has the adoptive Vishwamitra. But I mean, there's a lot of people who don't have that kind of situation where they're just stuck with really bad parents. And it's like, are you just expected to pay them a debt just as a matter of course? Like, are you just required to. Even if they haven't actually done anything other than bringing into the world and then not really crazy, right?
Brad
And stuff like that? Yeah.
Student
Are you still expecting to pay them a debt just because it says so?
Brad
Well, I mean, I think I would just point out again that in most of the. Most of the ways that we've talked about, with the exception of, you know, like, taking care of our elderly parents when they can't take care of. Of ourselves other than that exception, all these are kind of, you know, you're paying it to someone else. Right? I mean, like, Martin Luther King's debt. So I can't pay him anything. Right. But I can still pay that debt by sort of, you know, embodying his teachings, following those, kind of making the most of what I've received as a result. Yeah.
Student
I just had a good question of how, like, they relate. The debts relate to, like, moksha and liberation.
Student
Because, like.
Student
Like, we pointed Uddalaka, gods are enough there. But, like, still, there's a reason that, like, this is how things are set up. Like, that's where dharma is. Like, it's like a, like, cosmic, like, law of, like, what we're supposed to do. And, like, we're supposed to have these debts and pay them. But, like, how is it being Measured how we pay them. And, like, if we do it well, like, does that mean, like, we'll be liberated or we'll be closer to liberated, or, like, are we just kind of stuck in this cycle where, like, they keep being reborn and then we have these new debts and then, like, you have to pay those back?
Brad
Yeah. I mean, I hear this is coming up a few times in terms of, like, accounting, Right. Maybe all our finance accounting people. It's like, what exactly? What. How much do I owe and to whom? And that sort of thing. And when have I paid it back, when have I done enough sort of thing and. Yeah, I mean, sure, maybe. I mean, we could answer that different ways, I think, right. In terms of liberation or moksha, you know, you can't be liberated if you owe a debt. Right. So that is part of it. It's not necessarily that by repaying these debts or fulfilling these debts that we are liberated, but maybe hard to be liberated if you haven't sort of repaid those debts. Right. And. Yeah.
Student
Adora, how do you know when the debts are repaid? Because I feel like that's such an arbitrary, subjective. I don't know. When I repay my ancestors.
Brad
Yeah. I mean, you know, different. Again, different people could answer it different ways. You know, one could think of maybe a deity or a God that is sort of like the divine accountant. That's sort of like the scales of justice and saying, hey, you haven't, you know, you did these bad things, so you owe a debt, or you did these good things, so you've paid off something. Right. That sort of. That sort of divine accountant sort of view of God. Or it could be just that in order to be a good person, you have to sort of pay it forward to the future. Right. If you want to be an ancestor, if you want to be remembered, or if you want to be a teacher, then, you know, you kind of. Do you follow those examples and emulate it. And it's not a matter of, like, have I done enough? You know, but instead it's more like the goal, you know, but different. Different people answer that different ways. Yeah. Yeah.
Student
Olivia, One thing that, like, really interested me about, like, what it said in the chapter, it said that we're bound by debt, but we can also speak and, like, speaking is the thing that, like, we're able to, like, be set free and, like, liberated through, like, the word. And I was confused, like, of, like, the manner in which we're speaking. Like, obviously it's not just speaking about, like, nonsense, but. But, like, what exactly Are we talking about. Are we, like, talking about, like, canons or different texts? Like, what are we speaking about that is gonna set us free from the debt that we owe?
Brad
Yeah. I mean, in the case of Shinasheva, Right. He is. It's not so much about him repaying a debt. I mean, he's in a bind, like, literally. Right. And so he's speaking because that's literally the only agency that he has. Right. Every other agency has been taken away from him, but he did, you know, have. He demonstrates that he knew the scriptures. Right. So he did kind of. In that sense, he's repaying his debt to his teachers in a sense by, you know. Okay, I know what to say in what situation. Right. I know which God to praise in this situation stuff. Yeah. I don't know. Good questions. Yeah.
Student
Samuel, I was just thinking, like, are we technically, I guess, in terms of, like, a Christianity standpoint, I guess, in comparison to this, like, if God created us or like the gods created us or something, I guess we owe it to them or we're in debt to them to fulfill their Word. Fulfill their word and like, I guess do the will of God in order to make it to heaven. So I guess, is preaching heaven, like, how we know we fulfilled our debts?
Brad
Yeah, it could be. Yeah. Yeah. If. Yeah, I think that's. Yeah. One. One way of looking at it. Yeah. I mean, there are others, but. Yeah, that seems valid. Yeah. Angel.
Student
I think, like, I also noticed, like,
Brad
the interconnection of debts and like, how, like, a parent can also be a teacher. So then, like, does that mean there's,
Student
like, a hierarchy in the debts and, like, where does that place?
Student
Like, the gods, specifically?
Brad
Yeah, I mean, the gods question. I. Yeah, I'm not sure I have any particular insights on that, but in terms of the. I feel like we're still getting back to accounting. Right. I mean, like, how much do I owe to this? To this or that? I don't know. I mean, do you feel. Do you feel an obligation to your parents? Parents feel like they've made sacrifices and that you owe something. And is it a question of, like, have I done enough? Or isn't that kind of, like, up to you to decide when you feel like you've done enough and what you owe?
Student
Yeah, I guess I'm not really looking at it as, like, to be, like, specific, like, that's like, oh, I have to do this, this and this. But more just, like, I have to carry myself. The way that I live is like, should be reflecting, like, paying back to, like, X, Y and Z. Not necessarily. Like, I have to do, like, a certain amount of things. Just like, what I'm doing with my life should be reflective. And I guess, like, I'm kind of viewing this as, like, maybe like, with the nutrition, like, guiding principles of, like, you should be doing, like, paying back to, like, these specific people so that, like, you're in line with, like, the ⚠
Brad
religious values, beliefs, if that makes sannyasa, good folks.
Student
Yeah. I feel like there's not like a. They can't, like, fill up. There's not like a canister that, like, you fill up and then once you fill it up, like, you're done. Like, you paid the debt back. Like, the debt is kind of like the ideas that they give you. And then, like, you just have to, like, go off and, like, run with them. Like, all of them just kind of want you to, like, live like, the best you can. Like, have you, like, grow up and, like, be someone good and, like, be happy and, like, I guess that's how you paid off. But you don't, like, accomplish something. It's not like a task list. And then, like, your, like, quest is done in life. Like, you know, you kind of owe. There's like a fourth debt, I guess, which is like the overarching one, which is, like, to yourself, but ultimately that's to all these people.
Brad
Yeah, good. Yeah, good.
Student
Like, reiterating what he just said, like, I don't think there's, like, a threshold. I think the idea is that, like, you're constantly paying these debts until, like, the day you die or reach moksha or whatever.
Brad
Yep, good. Yep.
Student
I mean, like, I think that that's like.
Student
Like, we can't view them in, like, a negative light because, like, I think.
Student
I think that, like, defeats the purpose of it.
Student
And, like, the whole point is just to, like, teach about, like, morality.
Brad
Yeah.
Student
And, like, teach about our religion, how
Student
we should have, like, relationships with others.
Brad
Yeah. I think that's a good way to look at it. Right. That the question really is, like, how do I be a good person? How do I be an ethical person? What is of a good person? How do we define a good person? Right. And so if one wants to, it's not about, what am I going to get? Am I going to get heaven? Am I going to do enough to receive this reward or that reward or something, but instead, what do I have to do to be a good person? Right. And to be a good person, I have to recognize that I've received benefits one by the sacrifices of others and who are Those people that have sacrificed for me to have the kind of life that I have. And if.
Brad
If I acknowledge that my parents sacrificed a lot for me to get where I am, ancestors sacrificed a lot for me to get where I am, my teacher sacrificed a lot to get me where I am, then in order to be a good person, you know, it's not that I pay it back to them, but I do have to, you know, live into the kind of ideals that they held for me. Right. I mean, what about your, I don't know, your teachers here at school? On the one hand, you could say I don't owe them anything because they're already paid. I already paid my tuition. That's my debt. I don't have any debt to them because I have actual student debt. Right. But I don't know, do your teachers have some other expectations to you beyond just paying their salary? Your teachers want to see you, you know, succeed in these kind of things. And do teachers want to see you be the best, you know, version of yourself and to take these things that they're teaching you and apply them in a way, right, to. Yeah, word.
1:13:37

Closing and Office Hours Announcement

Brad
We are out of time for, yeah, good job with our leaders and yeah, see you Tuesday. I have office hours now.
Student
Who do you think that you was talking about?

THEO 1432: The Religious Quest · Brad Bannon · Boston College

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