Aitareya Brāhmaṇa (7:13-18)

02/05/2026 · Tue/Thu 10:30-11:45 AM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This session explored the Śunaḥśepa Ākhyāna, a pivotal myth found within the Brāhmaṇa portion of the Hindu Veda. The class analyzed the narrative of King Hariścandra’s vow to the deity Varuṇa and the subsequent substitution of the Brahmin boy Śunaḥśepa for the King’s son, Rohita. Central to the discussion was the instructor's argument that modern scientific cosmogony (pratyakṣa and anumāna) should not be bracketed when studying the ṚgVeda, as śruti reveals a different kind of knowledge that does not contradict empirical science. Students examined the archetypal roles of the characters—Varuṇa as transcendent order, Hariścandra as human desire, and Śunaḥśepa as the human condition bound by existence. A significant portion of the dialogue focused on the nature of sacrifice and the 'three bonds' (tri-bandha) of existence: biological, moral, and social. The instructor emphasized how Śunaḥśepa achieved mokṣa (liberation) not through physical escape, but through the agency of vāk (sacred speech) and manas (intellect), effectively unbinding himself from the 'stake of existence.' The session concluded by reflecting on the distinction between biological and functional roles, particularly in the context of fatherhood and caste, as seen in Viśvāmitra’s adoption of Śunaḥśepa.

⚡ Key Takeaways

Theological study of myth does not require 'bracketing' modern scientific theories like the Big Bang; the instructor argues that science and śruti reveal different, non-contradictory types of knowledge.
Śruti (revealed text) is considered a unique source of knowledge that does not contradict empirical perception (pratyakṣa) or inference (anumāna).
The myth of Śunaḥśepa illustrates that mokṣa (liberation) can be achieved through the agency of sacred speech (vāk) and intellect (manas).
Sacrifice in the Veda often involves the concept of substitution, where the value of the offering is determined by the deity's perspective or the social status of the victim.
The 'three bonds' of human existence are defined as the biological (body), moral (consequences of actions/karma), and social (societal expectations/duties).
Fatherhood and caste are presented in the text as functional roles rather than purely biological or static categories, as seen in the adoption of Śunaḥśepa by Viśvāmitra.
A myth functions as a lens or 'glasses' through which one views the world, often containing truths believed so deeply they are not consciously recognized.
The three bonds that tie Śunaḥśepa to the sacrificial stake symbolize the biological, moral, and social limitations of the human condition.
The 'three debts' (tri-ṛṇa) are introduced as obligations an adult must repay to parents, ancestors, and teachers.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Breath and Transition

Brad

Howdy, y'all. Let's take a moment to transition, just put everything away and just take a moment to be still. Let's take one breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out.

Student

Word?

1:10

Class Quiz and Administrative Reminders

Brad

Word. All right, let's, um, You know the drill. Hop on the quiz. Let's, uh, just keep it face down for a moment. Remind me your name. Brent. Yeah, it's all right. My bad. I also left my glasses at home today, so— oh, there you go. 30. All right, go ahead and turn them over. There are several right answers for number 14, and any of them will be fine. Looks like most folks are done-ish. All right, yeah, go ahead and pass them up, please. Cool and the gang, let's go over the quiz. So yeah, I don't know, like I said, a troubling percentage of students answered the question wrong on Tuesday, but I mean, on the other hand, it's kind of good to have a question that like, you know, 10 or 12% of the students get right because then that's a good indication usually of, you know, where the A's and the other things fall. But like, I feel like this should have been a pretty straightforward question, right? ⚠

10:10

Lecture: Ancient Mythical Creation Hymns and Sruti

Brad

In order to understand the ancient mythical creation hymns from the ṚgVeda Saṃhitā, it's important for students to bracket everything that we know about modern science and cosmogony, such as the law of conservation and entropy and theories like Big Bang. So in other words, science, right? True or false? Everybody's nervous about answering that one, right? Yes, definitely 100% false. Yeah, it's on a number— for a number of different reasons. For one, I specifically talk about the law of conservation and entropy and Big Bang in the chapter, even give equations for them and use them to interpret the text. But even more importantly, I think, is the fact that, you know, you have the pramāṇas and each of the pramāṇas reveals a different kind of knowledge, right? And so pratyakṣa and anumāna are, you know, basically science. I think that's how I— I mean, that's definitely how I explained them in class. And so those don't contradict the śruti, right? The śruti is a different kind— it reveals different kinds of knowledge. ⚠

Brad

And so remember I gave the example from Śaṅkara that even if the śruti said, you know, that fire is cold 1,000 times, it doesn't make fire cold, right? I mean, the śruti doesn't say that fire is cold. Which is part of his point, but if it did, it would mean something else, right? Because it can't contradict pratyakṣa and anumāna. I mean, anumāna is a little sus always, but— so important, if I ask that question again, please be mindful of that. What does the name Śunaḥśepa mean?

Student

Yeah, dog's tail.

Brad

Yep, either one. The most literally it's dog's penis, but it's— both of those are correct. What about the 4 kinds of sacred texts that's within āstika theology? Yeah, great, exactly right. And so which one is this one? śruti, right? Yeah. And what about the four parts of the veda in chronological order? So starting with, yeah, saṃhitās, and then the brahmmana, nice, good. And which one is this one? Today's text? No. Today's text is the brāhmaṇa. So we did saṃhitās on Tuesday, brahmanas today, and then we'll do the upaniṣads, a upanishad on Tuesday. We won't really read āraṇyakas, although we will read a section from the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad anyway. Hariścandra, King Hariścandra immediately fulfills his vow to Varuṇa without delay. ⚠

Student

No.

Brad

Yeah. He's like, "We got to wait 10 days, right? And then I got to wait until his teeth come in. I got to wait until his teeth fall out. And I got to wait until his other teeth come in. And then I got to wait until he's invested with armor, right? Until he's a full adult." So he puts it off for, you know, 20 years or so. So it'll be a useful contrast, I think, for next Thursday. Fatherhood is defined by biology. True or false? Yeah, biology and adoption, right? That's what the story is about. He's got a shitty, you know, Śunaḥśepa's got a shitty dad, and then he gets a new dad, right? And then myth. Yeah, let's pause on this question a little bit. So How is myth— what is a myth? Feel free to use part of the chapter if you want. Yeah. ⚠

14:25

Class Discussion: Raimon Panikkar and Archetypes in the Sunahsepa Myth

Student

I think in the text it was like something you believe without believing that you actually are believing.

Brad

A super weird sentence, isn't it? But yeah, that's exactly right. So something you believe without believing that you believe in it, which is another way of saying it's kind of like hidden from you, right? It's like you believe it so deeply, that you don't even think about it. You don't even recognize it. Yeah. And good. What else about myth? Yeah. ⚠

Student

I like when it compared it to glasses and that you look through them to see the rest of the world.

Brad

Yeah. Good. So yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So the goal of theology in a lot of ways is to help us to see through the lens of these other texts, right? So we're trying to see the world We're not just trying to see this myth of Śunaḥśepa, but see through it to understand, you know, what is it trying to say about self and self-world and God. Good. Any other answers there? Good. Those are great. I also have this line. I'm kind of proud of it. A myth is like a story that you hear when you're a kid and then again as a teenager and then again as an adult. But you don't really understand the story properly until you become a parent and begin telling it to your kids. That's when shit starts making sense. Sorry for all the profanity in the chapter. It's hard for theologians to not just curse all the time. Anyway, let's dive into the text. Yeah, who wants to get us started? Who are our leaders today? Okay, who wants to get us started? Anyone? Yeah. Thanks. ⚠

Student

I like the part at the end a lot where they kind of characterize the different characters in the myth as different representations of like what drives humans. I found that really interesting. And then I ended up going back and rereading it with that in mind.

Brad

That was really helpful. Say, can you point us to that passage? Which—

Student

The passage or—

Brad

Yeah, the part that— Yeah, the part that made you read it differently.

Student

It's on page 6. It's like section 7.3.2.

Brad

Okay, okay. So yeah, so Raimon Panikkar's— yeah, do you mind reading a little bit of that? Yeah.

Student

Sattva's story as the myth of human condition, he argues that the characters aren't just people, they're archetypes. And then it goes in and says Varuṇa represents transcendent order. He is the law of the god who binds those who violate the cosmic balance. ⚠

Brad

Hariścandra.

Student

Hariścandra, the king, represents the human driven by desire. He wants immortality, a son, and tries to bargain with the divine, but he discovers he cannot cheat the debt of existence. Rohita, the son, represents attachment to life. He runs to the forest, refusing to die, symbolizing our biological drive to survive at all costs. Śunaḥśepa represents the human condition itself. Like him, we're all born bound but find ourselves tied to the stake of existence, owing a debt we didn't choose. So I like that passage And then after reading that, I was able to go back and see that— or give me a very solid framework to read the myth through. ⚠

Brad

I think very often throughout this course, it's going to be good to go back and reread, exactly like you did. Go ahead and read the whole chapter. And then when you read an interpretation, it gives you a framework. Then go back and reread it. And yeah, Raimon Panikkar, this is a super important myth for Raimon Panikkar. And I also want to draw your attention to a word that came up twice in the passage that Claire just read, which is debt. So debt is going to be an important theme for, yeah, probably for the next Well, definitely for this unit at least. Yeah. Thanks, Claire. Yeah. ⚠

Student

I also kind of read about those archetypes and I thought that was like an important piece.

Student

And when we kind of talked about how like Śunaḥśepa is like achieving mokṣa, I kind of like wanted to go back to like the archetypes and like see if I could maybe like connect some of the other characters to the different like four goals. And so I kind of was like reading into it again, and I was thinking that the king is kind of like that pleasure side of it. ⚠

Student

He wants a son, and he wants to feel love with his son.

Student

And then Ajīgarta, I think Śunaḥśepa's biological father, was kind of more interested in prosperity. And he wanted the 100 cows, and he wanted to be rich, I guess. And then Śunaḥśepa, The first part was obviously like the mokṣa part, and then I kind of thought like for Varuṇa was going to be like the dharma part of it, because it was like very like he wants to uphold the law anyways. ⚠

Brad

Excellent. That was great. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's Eva?

Student

Grace.

Brad

Grace. I'm so sorry. Who's Eva? Okay. Okay. Thank you, Grace. Yeah. Evan?

Student

I wanted to go back to 7.1. 3.2 that she brought up, um, because the bottom, the three bonds that you described, uh, describing the triple limitations of our existence, the biological, moral, and social. I had— I didn't understand that at all when my first read. Also, the character descriptions helped me because at first I thought Rohita was sacrificed. I reread, I was like, completely wrong. Um, but yeah, the three bonds to him when he was being sacrificed. I didn't see that at all when I first read it, so that was really helpful. ⚠

Brad

Good. And also, the 3 bonds also correspond to 3 stars. So those stars, and also those kind of disappear. Yeah, Anna?

Student

Like, the first time I read it about the bonds, I felt like it was something that just is the way it is. You're just bound to these things regardless. And then like at the end of 7.3 when it like brings up the unbinding of himself, it was kind of like the direct opposite. And like just because you're bound to something doesn't mean it's like your destiny. And like there's still things that you can do to like change your destiny. And like then when I reread it like throughout the whole story, like kind of knowing the end, I was like he's not like bound to his destiny of death just because like of his father's actions. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, we always have agency, right? Yeah, for sure. Um, so Even though he has very little agency, he still has agency, right? Everybody's trying to take it away from him. Great. Thanks, Anna. Yeah.

Student

And I feel like that agency really focuses on like manas, which is like intellect, and vak, which is like the word. It emphasizes kind of those like intellectual ideas rather than power or necessarily monetary value. Like you can't cheat or get ahead in life if you have that money that you can pay someone off. It's like, can you really understand who you are, where you are in the context of the world? And I feel like that's an important part of the story, and that's kind of the lens that it's asking you to see through. ⚠

Brad

Right on. Great. Thank you. Yeah.

Student

I also feel like going off of that, like, he was the one that was physically bound and limited, but because he was like so spiritually active, he became the one that was like free.

Brad

Great. Yeah. So freedom through that sort of Spiritual involvement. Yeah, great.

Student

I was gonna say, at first I was like a little confused because the first definition of the three bonds kind of talked about karma, about how we're kind of like bound by our actions, and it also talked about society too. Then towards the end, he kind of like breaks that and he's like liberated.

Student

I thought that was like interesting.

Brad

Yeah, good. And, um, let's look at that passage because it made me— when I was rereading it this morning, it made me a little bit uncomfortable. I remember it was at the bottom. This is so difficult when you leave your glasses at home. We're bound by— so 7.1.1. We're bound by our bodies. We're bound by the consequences of our actions. So not so much by our actions, but by the consequences of our actions. And we are bound by the expectations or duties of society. Yeah, great. Thank you so much. Yeah? ⚠

Student

I thought kind of it was confusing at first, but in 7.15, the meeting with Ajīgarta, when Hariścandra has drafted and Rohita was trying to return and he drew a metaphor to Kṛṣṇa, it says the portion of him who sits also sits and rises when he rises, which at first I thought, like, wait, what is this saying? Because like fortune in this story, I took it to be like you're gonna, you're gonna go die, you know, you're gonna be sacrificed. But then I'm starting to think of it a little bit, um, it's like if you go and face these great difficulties, um, I mean, we're probably never gonna face being sacrificed or traded for cows and something like that, hopefully. But, uh, yeah, but he ends up even having a better outcome than probably anybody would have imagined prior to it actually happening. So it just kind of made me think about what difficulties we face in my life or in our lives that we refuse to go and face, and if we do face them, what would be the outcome of it would be even better than we would have thought. ⚠

Brad

Great, thanks Logan. Yeah?

Student

Yeah, I also thought the part Part 7.17, where after he is like kind of liberated, the bounds loosen, and he's, you know, right after that moment when his original father is like, give me my child back. Like, I thought that was very interesting because originally when he was taken or sold by his parents, the dad was like, oh, I want the oldest son. And the mom's like, oh, I want the youngest. But now his son has become Devavāta, God-given. ⚠

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And so I thought it was really interesting to see like your own father be so willing to give you away and then suddenly become important and want you back. And then who is his new father stepping in and being like, no. I thought that was really interesting. Connects back to the quiz of like your adopted family and who your family really is and like who you're blood related to versus who's like taking on that role in your life. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, good. So the difference between sort of form and functions, right? So fatherhood as form versus fatherhood as function, right? So I gave the Luke, Darth Vader, Mr. Ping, and Po. Yeah, good. Thanks. Yeah?

Student

I wanted to, going off that passage, One Down, 7.18. I was a little confused when reading when Viśvāmitra was like introducing Śunaḥśepa to his 50 eldest and 50 youngest sons. I didn't know if that was like a tie to other people who achieved mokṣa, or like I didn't really understand the context of that very ending. ⚠

Brad

Okay, let's look at it. That's a good question. So you mean 7:18?

Student

Yes.

Brad

Okay, so Viśvāmitra— also on pronunciations, I just appreciate it when you give it your best shot. If you mispronounce something, it's not a big deal. Just, yeah, so thank you. Viśvāmitra addressed his 50 elder sons asking them to accept Śunaḥśepa as their superior. They refused and were cursed to become outcasts. But his 50 younger sons, led by Madhuchandas, accepted him. Viśvāmitra blessed them, saying they would have many sons and cattle. The story of Śunaḥśepa Ākhyāna. A king who desires victory should have this story told to him. He'd be freed from many sins. Articulate your question one more time. What was that? ⚠

Student

It says like cursed to become outcast, and it has in parentheses Andras, Pundras, and Savaras. I don't really remember learning much about those. ⚠

Brad

No, we haven't learned anything about them. Yeah, that's okay. You don't need to know anything about them. The— I think more importantly is the relationship between father and son that's going on here, right? So you've got Viśvāmitra who adopts this son and then gives his— I mean, bro's got a lot of kids already, but he then turns to his 50 elder sons and gives them a chance, right? To say, hey, here's your adopted brother, accept him as, I mean, as your superior. So, okay. But, but they reject that, right? So there's sort of like almost like, almost like chosen family, right? So like the father has chosen this son and then the sons are rejecting their biological father, right? So there's again sort of an element of agency or choice here. And what it means, you know, is going to be super open for interpretation, right, for all of us. But there's something going on here about father-son relationships and family, chosen family versus spiritual family versus— so again, sort of form versus function in terms of familial relations. Good. ⚠

Student

Yeah.

Student

The hangup from this story too was about sacrifice.

Student

And I felt like I was a little bit confused when it kind of seemed like everyone was getting away with the sacrifice.

Student

I know that Rohita, when he went to the forest, he kind of cheated his way out of the sacrifice. It seemed like nothing really happened to him. And it seems like the one who kind of got what was coming to him was Ajīgarta, the father. So I think it was kind of like almost a message that sacrifice kind of is necessary. And in the end, Śunaḥśepa kind of was accepted and he achieved mokṣa. So it was something that in the end was powerful and good for him. ⚠

Student

But while it was going on, it was obviously —like, have bad experience.

Brad

Oh, for sure. Yeah, great. Yeah, thanks, Chris. Yeah, Logan?

Student

Going off the interpretation in 7.1.8 and Bhishma, Mitra, and his sons, I thought it was an interesting piece of social commentary where, like, in most societies we think of elders as being, you know, superior in knowledge and wisdom. But in this case, they became, like, you know, they were refused— they refused refused the offer and they were outcast, which I guess goes to show that regardless of what your status or perceived status in society or what system you're in, you're still subject to what you do and what you have regardless of what your place would be, which I guess is kind of goes against what the caste system sort of says. ⚠

Brad

Yes. I think, yeah, I think in a minute maybe we should break into small teams and have some discussions. But I think discussing like what is going on about the sacrifice, what is trying to be said here about sacrifice and the role of sacrifice, the relationship between mokṣa and sacrifice, and what's being said about casteism and birth, right? So again, form versus function. So is caste a result of birth or is caste a result of function and behavior, right, and agency? And yeah, great. Yeah, Sophia. ⚠

30:54

Small Group Team Discussions

Student

This is unrelated to that point, but what I thought was really interesting was the idea that the 3 chords mirrored the constellation of the tail and how that was like the axis of how that was centered. Yeah. And the comparison to the axis of the North Star and how our world is centered. ⚠

Brad

Yeah. There's another— cosmic sort of thing going on here, which is Rohita means reddish. It kind of describes the sky at dawn, you know, and so— or dusk, but dawn I think fits better here. And so you've got the, right, the Little Dipper, right, or the Śunaḥśepa, the constellation in the sky with its three dots that point towards the Polaris, so that North Star that I talked about on first opening lecture, but in a very literal way. But then as the sun rises in the morning, that Rohita, as the sun, as dawn emerges, those disappear sort of one after another, right? So back to Evan's point about the, the kind of disappear, each one of those bonds, each one of those bonds, you know, you're liberated from them sort of one after another. So we've got debts and bonds and liberation. ⚠

Student

Yeah, this is also kind of unrelated, but going back to like Panicard's, like how he sees different characters as like embodying different aspects of like the human condition. I thought that like Śunaḥśepa's father, if It's more of a negative outlook, I guess, on humanity. But I feel like his father kind of represents greed and human greed specifically. He keeps asking for more and more cattle. And then when Śunaḥśepa transcends and becomes a god or whatever, he immediately wants him back, like somebody mentioned before. So a little bit more negative, but I feel like His character kind of embodies greed. ⚠

Brad

Oh, no question. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Anna?

Student

I'm thinking about the stars and specifically the North Star and how it is like the center of our world and it goes up and down. We see it and then we don't during the day. In our waking day, it kind of makes me think of just having the internal thought and notion that there is someone above. There is a god and stuff. When we can't see it, we still have to remember it and have it as our leader, almost like it leads us towards the right choices in life. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, a really important point. That particular spot of sky is kind of always visible, right? You can always see it. I mean, you can't see it during the day, but that's not because it's not visible. It's because the sun is sort of overwhelming it. Yeah, great.

Student

Yeah, going back to the point about greed, I think it's important to note that the father and that entire family was part of the brahmin class, which is obviously the highest class of the varna system. So it's interesting that like that class doesn't escape the greed and the, and the, the binds. Like everyone, regardless of who they are in society, falls, um, to these. And I think that's an important part of the story as well. ⚠

Brad

Yep, absolutely. Yep. Again, some things being said about caste, and what is being said about caste may not be exactly what most people expect when they read it. Yeah, so definitely not a glowing portrayal of this, of this brahmin priest.

Student

Yeah, I also found it interesting going back to that point that, uh, like Śunaḥśepa, though, like, he's kind of brought up randomly during trading. And then Rohita, who's the son of a king, he was a kshatriya while Śunaḥśepa was a brahman. Brahman, yep. I found that interesting. I didn't really understand why, but probably because I don't fully understand the caste system. Yeah. But I just thought Rohita would have a higher caste. ⚠

Brad

Right. Yeah. And then there's also Varuṇa's statement that, well, yeah, sure, I'll take this substitute. Yeah, substitution is another. Important theme from this chapter, from this unit actually. And so he's willing to take Śunaḥśepa as a substitute because he's, you know, a brahmin priest and therefore more valuable to him for whatever reason than a kshatriya. Yeah, good. Should we get into small teams and try to keep your conversation on topic. But let's— oh, by the way, I should mention this is an abbreviated, you know, this is not the full 7 chapters or whatever. These are abbreviated versions, maybe too abbreviated in hindsight. But yeah, try to focus on those things that we just said, right? So the role of the sacrifice, the relationship between mokṣa and and the sacrifice, and, you know, we could ask how does, how does mokṣa happen here? What does mokṣa mean in this context? And the notion of ransom and substitute. Yeah, good, or any of those other things. Yeah, so yeah, take, I don't know, take at least 5 or 6 minutes and on your team, see if you can come up with some other insights or questions. ⚠

Brad

We can all chat like this, right?

Student

Should we do a transition? It was like her mission to get done.

Student

All right guys, we have this huge wing to ourselves. Oh, so maybe they're just like in fear. ⚠

Brad

The cow is the same symbol as life on Earth, so maybe they're just like— ⚠

Student

I like that.

Student

Um, Tuesday after spring break.

Brad

Really? What'd you say?

Student

Yeah, nice.

Brad

How did you get that?

Student

What, the milk cart?

Brad

Yeah, I want— I don't know what she said. Like, what, what did she talk about? Yeah, cuz I feel like it's so hard to explain. Like, you can't give a quick definition. Yeah.

Student

All right.

Student

I like your hat, Scott. I changed up a few times. I have a crew, so in the morning I never do my hair. ⚠

Student

I have like 6 or so hats. Nice.

Student

All righty, we're indoors right now, so it's okay. But you got to look out, it's really cold. ⚠

45:30

Group Reports: Agency, Moksa, and Social Commentary

Brad

So, um, Obviously still happy to hear from our team leaders, but would love to hear from anybody that hasn't chimed in yet. Anybody, honestly, leaders or not.

Student

Yeah, up here. I mean, one thing that would be really focused on, I thought was kind of like the big, I guess, lesson of the story is like talk about being saved by the act, like the word, as well as intellect. ⚠

Student

It's kind of like it showed that no matter really who you are, if you're able to you can speak towards a cause, you have an ability to be saved. ⚠

Student

I think that was kind of really important.

Brad

Yeah, so again, that agency, right? Speak up for yourself. Maybe everybody in the world is going to crap on you, but speak up for yourself. Yeah, Anna?

Student

Similarly, we talked about maybe why this would be told like a father-to-son story, and what's the importance of a father telling his son to do this, and the fact that you have agency like regardless of like what you're born into or like the situation that you're put in, like you always have the agency to get yourself out of it and like unbind yourself through like words.

Brad

Right on, word. Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say kind of the same thing. Kind of the same thing. ⚠

Student

How you're like quote-unquote born bound, but you can free yourselves through Bach or you're free by speaking the truth, praying, and using your own intellect because everyone writes over from the human conditions of mortality ignorance and social norms. ⚠

Brad

Excellent. Great. Yeah, Grace?

Student

Yeah, I think that kind of connects with what you were saying about the fact that they talked to epistemology too and how Śunaḥśepa kind of knew what to do. No one told him he should go talk to the god. No one told him what to do, but he kind of had this inner feeling that he doesn't really know what else to do. Why not look to his gods and his son for help? ⚠

Brad

True, absolutely, but I will add to that that he did, he did know the right hymns, right? So when he speaks, what he's, and maybe this doesn't come through in this, you know, shortened version, but what he's saying, he's reciting the saṃhitās, right? And he knows which saṃhitās to recite here, and, but you're right that nobody tells him to do this. This is his own agency here. Yeah, Claire. ⚠

Student

Yeah, we also talked about mokṣa and like the word and how he was able to like unbind himself with that. But we connected it back to like the trimurti path and bhakti or devotion and said that that was how he was able to reach like this level of liberation. And then at the end of this chapter, you kind of introduced we're going to learn about somebody who reaches liberation with jnana, which I'm really excited to see because I feel like devotion made the most sense to me and was the most open to everybody. So I'm excited to see how another young boy is able to go through— well, I don't know, go through what, but use a different path to get there. ⚠

Brad

Awesome. Yeah, great. Really great point about bhakti too. Yeah, Evan?

Student

I saw a lot of similarities to the Red Bhagavan that we read, uh, specifically with desire and how, um, it kind of talks about in the Ramachan on the path to mokṣa, like human flaw, like fundamentally is like desire and how we desire something, then we attain it, and like for a split second we're fulfilled, but then we desire something else. And that fulfillment, um, is like how you feel when you have mokṣa. And then I saw desire all over the text a lot about like just living. Like the king wanted to be immortal, the son didn't want to be sacrificed, he kept running. And then even Śunaḥśepa's dad Ajīgarta wanted to live because he was— they were struggling, so he sold his son for cows. And then Śunaḥśepa, when he was being sacrificed and put to death, instead of— he could have— I don't know the context, but he probably could have ran, but said he recites his hymns, his saṃhitās, and he accepts it. And that's when he is liberated. ⚠

Brad

She's mokṣa. That's a good point. Rohita ran, right? So why doesn't Kṛṣṇa— yeah.

Student

We also talked about the importance of the substitute that Rohita brings and how they said because he's a brāhmaṇa, it's okay. So we were kind of thinking because it doesn't matter who you are, but where you from like your social class is like the most important part of your identity in this story. And like it was kind of interesting to see that like it doesn't even matter like your name or like who you are as an individual, but rather like your society, your class takes like utmost importance to like other people. ⚠

Brad

And like that's how they view you. Okay. All right. Yeah. Christine?

Student

You were saying earlier like it was kind of interesting that not Rohita, but the other son like didn't run away way, saying maybe he felt like a little bit like kind of like bound to like his like duty towards his like father. Like even though, like again, like he was being sacrificed and like he was liberated, it's still like maybe he had that like connection still to like, I don't know, so his father can benefit. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, I'm going to have to go back and look at the fuller version and see what— yeah, why doesn't he— I didn't— I'd never really thought about this question before. ⚠

Student

But yeah, a lot about privilege and how like Rohita had the privilege to run away and had the privilege to find a substitute.

Student

Yeah, right.

Student

He just had to like accept his fate.

Brad

Yeah, I mean, even on the most literal level, like, okay, Varuṇa approved the substitution, right? And approved it because you know, because of caste reasons, right? But that doesn't seem like that would even be an option for Śunaḥśepa, right? Who would he trade up for or something? Yeah, great. Yes, Sophia. ⚠

Student

Like going back to the idea that he like reached liberation through speech, we talked about how this also marked like a shift in the overall message from like an external ritual, like ceremony, to more internal awareness. And like that's what ultimately like gave him liberation. ⚠

Brad

Okay, yeah, great. Yeah, I have a question.

Student

7.17 says Śunaḥśepa pens up a specific method of oppressing the soma and performed it. So is that saying that Śunaḥśepa sacrificed himself? ⚠

Brad

Like, as he killed himself? No, I thought you were gonna ask about soma. Yeah, so soma, I mean, The short answer is we're not entirely sure what soma is. It's a plant. It's definitely a plant, right? Most scholars think that it was something kind of like milkweed. You know, if you know milkweed— anybody familiar with milkweed? Milkweed is like, if you, if you like break it or crush it, then this really milky milk, you know, milky substance comes out. Looks like, you know, semen. I mean, it looks like semen, right? I mean, it's definitely the point. Looks like semen. And I chose the right word there, I think. But not only that, but most scholars think that if you— that soma also had to hallucinogenic properties. That's so— it was— there's so many hymns in the saṃhitās about soma. Soma plays a significant part in all of the— in many of the brahmanas and rituals. Relatively small role here, but still is mentioned. So what exactly soma, the plant, is, we don't know, but, but has those properties, right? ⚠

Brad

This sort of milky white, milky— when you press it, you get that, that sort of thing. And, um, and if you ingest it, it seems to have some hallucinogen properties. But it's definitely seen as like, um, one of the favorite, uh, things for the gods, right? So then we might also ask here, um, because we do want to keep a focus on sacrifice, right? What is— I mean, one of the focuses on sacrifices. So what is, what is the point of sacrifice, right? Is the point that you should give something up, right? So the value of the sacrifice is whatever you're giving up, right? Not to whom you're giving it, but, you know, the value of what you're giving up. That'll come up again quite a lot on Tuesday. You'll see that right at the beginning of the Katha Upanishad. Is it, or is the value of the sacrifice what the deity to whom you're sacrificing, maybe it's whatever they value more, right? So like here we've got Varuṇa, and Varuṇa's like, well, I'd rather have a brāhmaṇa than a kshatriya, right? ⚠

Brad

And there doesn't seem to be any, yeah, so you could say, well, Ajīgarta, no, no, no, Hariścandra, sorry. Hariścandra, right, he wants to give up this, he wants to sacrifice his son. Well, he doesn't want to sacrifice his son, right? He promised to sacrifice his son and then he realized, oh, this is a cost that's too great, right? I don't want to accept this cost. Because it's too much of a sacrifice to me. But then he can substitute, right? And Varuṇa is like, well, that's fine. I don't really care whether you give up your firstborn, your only son, right? I just care about what you're giving me, right? Which is just a human, right? So, and some humans are worth more than others. So does that make sense? Right? Like if I, Yeah, I don't know, questions, thoughts about any of that? It's about the role of, uh, yeah, so there's something about sacrifice. ⚠

Student

Yeah, I also saw the role of sacrifice in this, just relating to like real life, uh, mokṣa, where like they live without any possession, like they give up all their— sacrifice their possessions, sacrifice their identity. I feel like this is kind of representation of achieving mokṣa in real life. ⚠

Brad

Okay, all right, so say more about that. So mokṣa in this day and age is—

Student

I remember you brought up the example where they're like, they sit on the street like with a bowl.

Brad

Okay, sannyasins.

Student

Yeah, is that the same thing?

Brad

That's the fourth stage of like— yeah, so sannyasin is one who's attained liberation, they've attained mokṣa, and then what do you do after you've attained mokṣa? Well, you become a sannyasin, and you basically just sit around. You have no possessions, right? Not even a name usually. And your role is really to kind of be an example for others and be a teacher, right? So they do have a teaching role in society, but not a paid teaching role really, per se. Yeah? ⚠

Student

Kena, she mentioned, like, felt like death, I guess, and like Śunaḥśepa is like kind of in like one of those near-death situations, and I feel like it was a little bit unclear to me like whether he like dies or not, but it does seem like the sannyasas are like still living. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, he does not die in this text. Um, uh, yeah, so that is really important point that you're making, which is that, um, mokṣa for some of the shad-darshana, for some of the six perspectives, mokṣa only happens after death, right? But definitely not here in this case, right? So it seems like, you know, and I mean, those shad-darshanas would say, well, he's prepared for mokṣa, but his final liberation won't happen until death. But here it does seem like he is liberated. I mean, he's at least liberated from the knife. Right? He's at least liberated from death by his actions and by his speech. Right? So mokṣa doesn't— isn't aligned entirely with that. Yeah. ⚠

Student

This is kind of morbid, but it caught my attention when you said some humans are worth more than others. Yeah. It's like, what perspective is that from? Because like, if you look at the example you gave about like your father, but you're also a brother, where, what does that mean? ⚠

Brad

[Speaker] I mean, so all I meant was that from the perspective of this story, kind of on the superficial level, right, we've got the character of Varuṇa, the deity Varuṇa, and Varuṇa says, I mean, he specifically says like a brāhmaṇa is more valuable to me than a kshatriya. So it's fine for, it's fine for you to substitute this other person for your son because this other person is more valuable to me, right? And obviously, that raises all sorts of troubling questions, right? And yeah, so what do those mean? Yeah. I don't have any particular insights now, but we'll, yeah, keep asking that question. Yeah, it's good. Others? Yeah. ⚠

Student

Yeah. I also think the story we were talking about how it kind of reveals like the dichotomy between like the acceptance and like the fear of death. So like Rohita, kind of like everybody is born like knowing that he's going to have to die or he's going to have to be sacrificed, I guess, which is like a more extreme version of like what we all have to do. ⚠

Brad

Deal with.

Student

We all know we're going to die. For sure. And he's afraid of that death and he runs from it. And Śunaḥśepa, we don't know why, but he just accepts it. And I think that's why he moves closer to that mokṣa because he isn't afraid of what's inevitable. He just welcomes it with open arms. ⚠

Brad

I mean, true, but he also does do everything in his power to to get, yeah, to get free, right? He doesn't like quite resist it the same way. Right, he doesn't run away, that's for sure, yeah. Good? So let me teach you one more thing that is kind of relevant here, and there's a little bit about this at the end, the 3 bonds. But here, these are usually called the tri-rena, three debts, and these will come up, I mean, they come up here, but then also in the Katha Upanishad, the early reading for Tuesday. So the idea, this is a very old, yeah, old doctrine within Hindu tradition. The idea is that each one of us is born with three debts, or not born with, each of us As an adult, we have 3 debts that we have to repay. And those 3 debts, one is a debt to our parents, one is a debt to our ancestors, and another is a debt to our teachers. And I mean, before I even teach you anything about those, Let's just think about them on our own. ⚠

1:01:09

Theological Reflection: Debts to Parents, Ancestors, and Teachers

Brad

So do you feel like you have some sort of a debt to your parents? Feel like you've received something from your parents and in some way indebted to them? Yeah? Hopefully everybody does, right? How do you think your parents want you to respond to that debt, right? Do they want you to What do they want for that debt? What is the debt for? And, you know, what— in what ways are you indebted? And how do you repay that, Danielle? ⚠

Student

When you brought up this question, I immediately went to my education and them being able to give me the opportunity to, like, learn what I'm passionate in and do something with my life, kind of. Yeah. And so I think what they would want from me is to use every opportunity possible and do the best I can make the most out of life. ⚠

Brad

So they've sacrificed for you, right, and given you these opportunities, and then you repay that by making the most of it. I think that's good.

Student

Yeah, I think a lot of it's like time and care. So I think my dad always says like, don't be like an asshole to me when I'm older. And like, I know I might ask you like wipe my ass, but like be nice and take care of me. Yeah, but it's more of just like spending time, being being there with my family when I'm older and busier rather than, you know, kind of ignoring them and pushing them off to the side when I have other things going on. But going back and spending time, having conversations, whether it's a call or actually visiting them. I think that's a big thing. ⚠

Brad

Yeah. So kind of like when you were a kid, they took care of you, and then when they were older, take care of them. Yeah. Great. You have here? Yeah. ⚠

Student

For me, it's pretty similar to that. Like, at least like for me, like my grandma lives with us, like she's to live on her own. Like, my parents are like not considering nursing. Like, they want her to live with us. And like, that's kind of something that's been instilled in my family. I know that like when I'm older, like, I'll have the responsibility to take care of my parents as like they've taken care of me for many years. And it's kind of like repaying the debt in that sort of way, kind of what Colin's saying as well, is like don't just push them to the side. ⚠

Brad

Great. Yep.

Student

I think similar to that, I've always had my grandma live with me like my entire life, and I've seen a reflection of how it's my grandma and mom said. So I see how my mom treats my grandma and there's a lot of care, there's great bond there. So I hope to replicate what she's able to pull off. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, good. Yep.

Student

I always think of like when like big moments happen in your life, like who you turn to and like you kind of think about like, oh, like I got this job, like, and then like, and a lot of times like if you like post about something or like a commitment to school or something like I like to think like these, these, these, and it's like always, you always think like your support system, which is like your parents, and then like kind of like your teachers and like who educated you to get to that point. And like, so I always think of like who you turn to like when you have an accomplishment. It like changes from like accomplishment to accomplishment, like who helped you along the way, but it's always some combination of like all three. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, for sure. Great. Other insights? There's one more way that one can repay this debt. As you all kind of pointed out, it's not exactly repaying, right? I mean, there is an element of like, hey, they took care of me when I couldn't care for myself, and then, you know, when they get older, if they reach that age where they can't take care of themselves, well, that's definitely one way to repay them. But another way, in addition to all of those very important points that you guys said, another way is to have children, right? So that's, you know, I know this for my mom in particular, right? What she, you know, she was like, I don't want you to repay me for the sacrifices that I made for you. I want the way you repay that is by, you know, doing the same for your kids. So sort of paying it forward rather than paying it back, right? So that's, it's about having kids. Again, that's not the only answer. That's not to displace all of the answers that y'all gave, which are also right. What about ancestors? ⚠

Brad

First of all, I think we need to think maybe a little bit outside of the norm, outside of the box when we talk about this word. Word ancestors. Ancestors does not exclusively or even primarily mean biology. We're not talking about your grandparents or your great-grandparents or that kind of thing. I think in this, in a good corollary for us, you know, here in this room, might be, you know, like George Washington, Martin Luther King, and the The founders of Boston College for sure would be really important ancestors, right? Maybe even the workers, right? The construction workers that built Stokes Hall, right? All of the time and effort that they put into that, right? So basically the, you are all, we are all recipients of a world that was not built by us, right? Our ancestors constructed Boston College. Our ancestors constructed this country. Our ancestors constructed the world that we've received, right? So by ancestors, that's what I mean. That's what we mean here, right? Not primarily or, you know, really at all your biological ancestors, but your social ancestors in that sort of sense, right? ⚠

Brad

So do we have— do you feel any sort of debt to them? What kind of— how can we repay them?

Student

I think you build on the legacy that they worked hard to create, where even here, like, at clubs that I'm in, the saying is honestly like, someone did it for me, so it's kind of on me to do it for someone else. Where same thing, pay it forward, but someone worked hard to start something and then include you in it, and it's on you to move it forward, take it to a higher level, and just keep pushing it along.

Student

Great. Yeah, going off that, I mean, think about it, like 125 years ago we weren't flying or anything. Like, flight was just still a theory. Yeah. And since then, I mean, we've progressed tremendously. We made it to the moon, and it spanned about 50 years from the first flight. And we live in amazing comfort and luxury. What can we do to further our human race even more? What can we do personally to contribute to this? I'm not saying, you know, you have to start launching rockets like Elon Musk and such. Is it just being kinder in your actions and words every day? Is it maybe taking those bigger risks, like maybe doing something like that? Or is it, well, what can you do in your life to further this so it's even better for our grandchildren are kids. ⚠

Brad

Excellent. Great. Yeah.

Student

I think like more like on like the non-biological ancestors who like fought for things that like we now like take for granted, like voting rights and like civil rights and stuff like that. Like the way that we can repair death is just like keeping their story relevant and like making sure that like we keep teaching the history of like how this world came to be and like, like just devoting like time to learning about them and like what it was like before them and just be grateful for what we have now. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, great. A really good point. Yeah, Danielle.

Student

I also think in terms of the environment, there's a whole like conservationist movement and like that's the reason why we have all those national parks now.

Student

So like to pay it forward in our future, like children and everyone in the world can see like all the resources that we've had and all the animals and everything that makes up the world.

Student

And it's like a reminder it's not just humans. To get access to everything. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, really good point. Thank you for that one. Yeah, great. Yeah, these are all great points. And then the last one is debts to our teachers, right? So yeah, what debts do we owe to our teachers and how do you repay those? Yeah, Castilian.

Student

I think about like my teachers throughout, like even for elementary school, even high school, like I remember like specific teachers like very vividly, like who had like a major impact on me. And like just thinking about high school, like a lot of my teachers, like in particular like my own history teacher, like is definitely like a large part of the reason like why I'm here, like helping me through like college process, everything like that. So I think like they really like can alter your life in like a really significant way. And I think that that for a debt it's harder to pinpoint than maybe the other two because I think each teacher kind of has a different relationship with you and like what they were able to provide for you. So I think like, I think it's just like maybe for me it was like keeping in contact and like maybe doing what I said I was gonna do or like expanding what I was like said I was going to do in college and beyond and stuff like that. ⚠

Student

And like making sure that they know that they have that impact I think is one of like the biggest parts. To actually go out of your way to thank them and tell them that they were able to change your life in a pretty significant way. Yeah, excellent.

Brad

So I mean, there's kind of two ways that you're supporting. One is to say thank you. And the other one is to make the most of it, right? Which is kind of what we've said about the other two as well, right? So recognizing the sacrifices of your parents, recognizing the sacrifices of your ancestors, recognizing the sacrifices of your teachers. But then not paying it back directly, but instead sort of paying it forward, making the most out of it, right? Thinking future and having that sort of similar impact on others. Yeah. ⚠

1:10:47

Closing and Future Purpose

Student

When I think of teachers, I don't necessarily think of professors. Obviously that's a huge part of it, but I also think about the people around me, especially those older who have kind of helped me out and mentored me. Yeah, I think that's a major part of it. I think that like passing along that like simple guidance, whether that's like helping you plan out your week or like how to deal with homework or transition. I feel like that's a major part of it. So recognizing like that maybe professors and those in the educational realm are a huge part of it, but also those around you who are helping you every day. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, really excellent point, right? So then again, form and function, right? A teacher isn't somebody who has the title of teacher. A teacher could be an upperclassman that like, you know, tells you what theology class to take or what's, you know, whatever, gives you insights and guidance along the way, right? And so teacher is a function more than a form. Great. Yeah. ⚠

Student

And with that function, I feel like there's like a debt to continue it forward, kind of like we talked with like ancestors. Just if you're being taught those lessons, especially like elementary teachers where they're teaching you the basic life lessons, just being able to replicate that and then pass that on to your children or pass it on to other people around you is just very important also. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, absolutely. And the reason that we do that is, again, thinking about the future, right? So sort of our purpose here is to sort of, you know, I mean, obviously make the most of the benefits that we have offered to us, but not just using all of that, but also paying it forward, right? Trying to make the future a better place for our own kids and for, you know, to become ancestors, right? To live into that. Not everybody who dies is an ancestor, right? Some, yeah, some folks should be remembered and acclaimed and emulated more than others. Good. Any other thoughts, questions, insights? Cool, right on. Well, for Tuesday, then we're gonna read chapter 8. I have not entirely finished chapter 9. I'm obsessing over it, so I just need to just send it. It's basically done, but I'll post Chapter 9 ASAP, and yeah, word, cool. Have a good weekend. Go Pats. ⚠