Vedic Cosmogonies: Epistemology, Ontology, and the One and the Many

02/03/2026 · Tue/Thu 10:30-11:45 AM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

This session explored foundational creation hymns from the Rig Veda—specifically the Nasadiya Sukta and the Hiranyagarbha Sukta—to investigate the relationship between the 'One' and the 'Many.' The class began with a discussion on the Nasadiya Sukta, emphasizing its themes of 'neither existence nor non-existence' and its concluding note of epistemological humility, questioning whether even the highest overseer knows the origin of the universe. Students then analyzed the Hiranyagarbha Sukta through metaphors of the golden embryo, the sun, and the seed, debating whether creation is an act of external making or internal becoming (transformation). The discussion utilized the 'milk to curd' analogy to illustrate causality and the disappearance of the cause into the effect. Throughout the lecture, the phenomenological method was applied to bracket assumptions and allow the Sanskrit texts to speak on their own terms, focusing on the limits of human knowledge and the nature of being.

⚡ Key Takeaways

The Nasadiya Sukta introduces a state of 'neither existence nor non-existence,' suggesting that the origins of reality precede binary ontological categories.
Epistemological humility is a central theme in Vedic thought, as seen in the suggestion that even a creator deity might not fully know the origins of creation.
The 'milk and curd' analogy illustrates that a cause (the creator) may only become a cause at the moment it transforms into the effect (creation), effectively ceasing to exist in its original form.
Creation in the Vedic context is often viewed as 'becoming' or 'unfolding' rather than 'making' something from external materials.
The Hiranyagarbha Sukta uses the 'golden embryo' to represent the seed of the universe, which contains the blueprint for the 'Many' within the 'One.'
Vedic hymns present mutually constitutive correlates, such as the idea that a 'top' cannot exist without a 'bottom,' or a 'knower' without the 'known.'
The refrain 'to which God shall we offer our oblation' in the Hiranyagarbha Sukta prompts questions about whether to honor the original source or the manifest forms that follow.
The seed metaphor suggests that creation involves a transformation where the original form ends to allow a new form to grow, challenging standard definitions of birth and death.
Students applied the phenomenological method to identify hidden presuppositions, such as the assumption that a 'Creator' must be a separate person or entity.
The discussion of the sun as a life-giving source highlights the possibility that these hymns describe continuous, ongoing processes rather than just historical events.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Transition and Class Setup

Brad

Look at me starting two minutes late like a freaking freshman. Sorry. Like a slacker. I mean, let's take a moment to transition. Put away all screens and just everything and just be still for a moment. It. Let's take one breath together. Go ahead and breathe in and out. Word. Almost sounded like this sound of a cell phone being put down in the middle of the meditation.

Student

Crazy.

1:26

In-Class Quiz and Team Organization

Brad

Start with a quiz. That'll be fun. Right? We're all weirdly arranged today, as usual. All right, let's start with them face down. Same. If you forget your number, let me know. It. It's. It. It's. It. It's it. As always for question five, I'm just really looking that you did the reading, so just give me enough. You know, not looking for an expert analysis or anything like that. All right. Take another 30 seconds just to round off whatever you're writing. Looks like most folks are done. Groovy. Good. All right, if you would, please make sure your name and number is on it and just pass them down that way, please. I need to know who our team leaders are today. All right, let's. Let's start. Let's start in small teams. By the way, I have not gotten to listen to any of the podcasts yet. Just five classes is a lot, and I have another. Another course starting yesterday, so just my attention was on that. And then my daughter's like, you know, the Jeep won't start. Like. Like, that's my problem. Right. So let's. Let's start in teams and small groups, and I'd like to. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, I'd like to know who the team leaders are, but you can go ahead and get into your teams. Let's also try, I think, for the rest of the semester, pretty much, you know, the default will be more of a circle. I want everybody to kind of see each other. Doesn't have to be like a square or a circle. Exactly. But, you know, just kind of everybody in your teams, you know, you can kind of be like circles of circles. You know what I mean? So, like, like, made total sense, right? Yeah. So just get in your teams in a way that we can kind of eventually see each other. And we'll take, I don't know, five, ten minutes. Problem. If I give too long, then conversation starts going away from the topic. So we'll take between five and 10 minutes, and I'll just use my ears to hear when the conversation seems to shift. But, you know, maybe the leaders, everybody should know who they're. Who's a leader. Right. And just kind of Talk to your team about what you're planning to say. You know, maybe get some feedback or whatever. ⚠

9:40

Small Group Preparation for Large Circle Discussion

Brad

But use this time to prepare to contribute to the larger circle. Yeah. Whether in form of question or comment or anything like that. Go. Go for it. And kind of move the tables and stuff as you do. It.

Student

Sa. That.

Brad

With.

Student

It.

Brad

There. All right. Definitely seems like some of the groups are off tapas try and get more in, like, a circle so you can see everybody. So you can see each other. The point here is really to have a discussion. Right. Folks talking to each other. So can you move more. Move the tables and move your chairs so that we're more, you know, circular square. There's. Yeah. Up here. It doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be like a perfect square or circle or whatever. Attendant. So andrew. No, andrew. Right. And tim. Wow. And brent. Everybody else is here. And I think christine. So you're number 25. Your number's 25. And manny, your number is 26.

Student

Og. You can.

18:37

Discussion on Creation and Epistemology (Rig Veda 10.129)

Brad

You can. Yeah. You can sit up here. yajna, or either one. I mean, who are our discussion leaders? Right. And anybody want to get us started on. We can more or less go in order. Anybody want to get us started on the Nasadiya Sukta?

Student

Yeah. Great.

Brad

Veer.

Student

Yeah.

Student

I mean, basically, like, all three of these are about creation. So the first one you look, that was like a non liturgical creation. I think I saw this before that start us off. But there's a state of neither existence or non existence. Basically just nothingness. And then there's like. Who's called that one is like. That's a couple of the, I guess, like, thing that's there that time. ⚠

Brad

Great, good. Yep.

Student

Yeah. And just to add on to that, the non dualism is expressed through that one. And that kind of helps to navigate the entire hymn.

Brad

Okay, good. Yep. And remember your name. Sorry.

Student

Lily.

Brad

Lily.

Student

The idea of one starting from many is, like, introduced through the tad ekam, which is like one. They first originally said there was one thing that everything originated from.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. Good. Yeah. And remind me your name.

Student

Georgia.

Brad

Georgia.

Student

Kind of building off of that, they. I think in the first 10, like, how creation is mysterious since they're like the, like Creator and like creation are interconnected. Even like the Creator, Gods might not know how creation began. And that, like, knowledge has its limits.

Brad

Okay, good. Yep. Sophia.

Student

I feel like it also, like, talking

Brad

about the limits, like, had, like, other questions behind it.

Student

Like, for example, what existed before us

Student

if it was just all nothingness?

Brad

Okay, good.

Student

Yeah, I feel like there's a lot

Student

of themes of, like, something and then not something. So, like, nothingness, not nothingness. Darkness, not darkness and those ideas. And I feel like that really reminded me of, like, the questions of, like, the first principles. Because it's like questioning, like, you know, like, who am I? Like a being or not being? Like, things like that. Like, what is, like, where am I? Like, not nothing. Not nothing. Just a lot of that kind of unknown.

Brad

Good. Very good insight. Remind me your name. I'm sorry. Kaylin. Kaylin. Great. Thank you. Others. This is a really important point we can come back to. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We've got three more leaders, right? Yeah. Castelia.

Student

Yeah.

Student

To go off of kind of what was said about how there's like, the duality of both things existing and non existing at the same time. And then also back to what was said about the idea of, like, who knows what happened with creation. I just thought that that point was interesting because the whole time I kind of went back and forth between whether or not things existed or didn't exist. And there's always kind of this, like, questioning tone to the entire passage where there was, like, a level of inside uncertainty in all of it, like, ambiguity. And I think that, like, when we. When I got to the end of it and like, it said that maybe, like, you know, we can find out how this creation occurred or not, like, that was just something that I didn't really come across, like, in other, like, just knowing very, like, offhand about, like, Catholicism, Christianity. Like, it seemed to me from the impression that I got, being from more of the outside that, like, the idea is that God knows everything and, like, knows all. Like, that was the entire impression that I got. ⚠

Student

Whether or not that's accurate or not, I'm not really sure. But, like, from here it was like something that was like, kind of contradictory to that and, like, pretty different. And I kind of liked that there was that idea that we might not actually know because then I was reading it more as like, like a moral code or just like an example of how you can view the earth rather than, like, you must believe this, like, set of events that happen that can't really be, like, you know, known for.

Student

Sure.

Brad

Great. Yeah.

Student

Thanks, YajnavalkyaI feel like adding on to that, like, that idea of, like, sort of like epistemological, like, humility sort of like, it sort of sets the tone for, like, how we should, like, approach our class, which is like, what you sort of, like, said in our introduction about, like, approaching this like, from a place of, like, bracketing our own assumptions. So I really like how, like, expressed like that, like, nobody really knows, like, exactly what happened and, like, so we shouldn't go into, like, this, like, reading this text as if we know, like, what's right and what's wrong and.

Brad

I don't know. Right on word. Yep.

Student

Going off.

Student

I was going to say a similar thing about how we have to approach everything we learn about removing our own biases and previous perspectives from whether, like, we're religious or not or what we've learned previously or not.

Student

In other.

Brad

Okay, great. Good. In order to approach the text as scripture. Yeah, for sure. So those are leaders. Fear, Saiv, Lily, Georgia, Kalyn, Castelia, Iona, Danielle. Right on. Cool then. All right, so let's dig into this a little bit more. I think there's a lot of really important points that are being raised here. Yeah. About epistemic humility and about the nature of epistemology. Right. So could we approach this. This text, you know, as saying something about epistemology? What is it saying? Yeah, what might it be saying about epistemology? How do you read that? You know, that ending? Perhaps it formed itself, perhaps it did not. He who surveys it from the highest heaven, he surely knows, or maybe even he does not know. So what's. Yeah. What are some possible ways? Let's try and get some possible interpretations out there. Caitlin.

Student

I feel like epistemology as, like, a field and, like, the how do we know what we know Question is like, an always ongoing, like, you're never going to find a conclusion. Epistemology, like, it's always going to exist. And I feel like that kind of like that last line that he surely knows, or maybe he does not even know, kind of like, solidifies that fact that you can try and, like, you can keep looking into things and always strive for that knowledge, but you're likely not going to reach it. Like, you're likely never going to know.

Brad

Okay, so there's just, like, on the. I mean, so on the one hand, just, like, the incompleteness of knowledge. Right. There's always more to know. No matter how much you know, there's always more to know. So complete knowledge is always sort of beyond our grasp. Yeah, good. Yeah.

Student

Fear, I think, like, what I like coming from, like, what I know of, like, some other, you know, like, other religions. I think it's, like, important to look at. Like, when I was first reading this passage was, like, it kind of reminded, like, Genesis, like, where God's like, oh, let there be light, like, in this case, it's like there's not there existence, more existence of the water heat, which create the water. Kind of going back to that question, I think it's a lot more like, what do like. Like, for me, it's like, all right, maybe this is true. Maybe this is true. It's kind of tie it together with different people of different backgrounds have all thought about creation in general. ⚠

Brad

Okay, so taking it as a story about the past. Is that what you think? Yeah. Yep.

Student

I think it's really shows, like, the limit of human knowledge that even, like, the supposed creator doesn't even for sure know. I think, like, having those questions about those first principle questions is, like, what spurs, like, so many different religions or viewpoints or why different people see the universe in a certain way because there isn't, like, a specific answer. And if in this text it says even the Creator doesn't know, then how would we know as the many.

Brad

Okay, good. Do you see? So where are you reading Creator? Okay. I don't think it mentions Creator, does it? Am I wrong?

Student

That was my interpretation.

Brad

Okay, okay. Others. Other interpretations or continue on that. Yeah, Castle?

Student

Yeah, I guess I maybe didn't have this thought initially because this was, like, the first one you read. But I think after reading all the three, like, it also kind of maybe points that, like, there's maybe not one person, person or thing or, like, divine power that we have to be listening to.

Student

Like, maybe it can be more of,

Student

like, a collective body of knowledge. And, like, I was just thinking of, like, Purusha as well. Like, because it's not like. Like, we all come from according to this, like, this, like, same source. Maybe, like, we don't really need, like, a leader in the sense of, like, one God. Like, maybe it could be more of, like, a collective understanding of, like, looking into the past and, like, thinking about how these things could have been created rather than, like, just one thing that, like, might be, like, the word of some, like, divine.

Brad

Okay, great. Yeah.

Student

I feel like that sort of, like, leads into what we were talking about, like, earlier in our class, like, setting up, like, the phenomenological method and stuff. Like, like, recognizing that we're all, like, coming from, like, different perspectives and different interpretations and, like, there's not, like, one single reality. Like, I feel like that really shows, like, why the phenomenological method is, like, necessary to, like, sort of, like, gain like, a fuller understanding.

Brad

Right on. Good. And sometimes these discussions, these phenomenological discussions can help us. You know, one of the things I said to do on the first day is to try and bracket your assumptions and bracket your presuppositions. But also part of my point was that you can never really do that. Right. You can always try, but there's always. Sometimes the discourse helps us to discover our, you know, hidden or covered presuppositions. That's what makes them presuppositions. Right. As they're before we suppose. So these ideas, like Vera is saying, like maybe this is a religious text or really reading it from a religious perspective, or Scott's, you know, reading it more from like a creator kind of perspective. Those aren't really in the text. Right. But instead maybe things that we're bringing to the text. Right. And some things that we don't even think about until we. Until we read the text. Right. And then those assumptions kind of get discovered or uncovered. Yeah. Anything else to add here?

Student

Yes, I ultimately also took away from. It was just the relationship between the knower and the knowing in the conclusion. It kind of describes the example of the physicist and the atoms need a visit to study atoms. But the physicist is made of atoms.

Student

So.

Student

Yeah, I just thought that was really interesting when reading this hymn.

Brad

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. I thought that that was, you know, when I, when I originally was writing this, I had always heard that that quote, you know, a physicist is the atoms way of knowing about atoms. I'd always heard that attributed to Carl Sagan, but turns out Carl Sagan was quoting George Wald or at least I don't know if Carl Sagan was quoting George Wald. It always gets shifted there. But yeah, I think that's right. Again, back to the nature of. The nature of epistemology or the nature of ontology. Right. So as Veer said, like there was neither non existence nor existence the first sentence. So what's. What using. Using what we've learned so far and using your understanding of ontology, what would it. What would it mean? This may be a small group discussion. Let's take a few minutes in small groups. I want to linger on this, on this hymn before we go to the next one. But, you know, kind of interrogate that idea of creator versus Creation. Can there be. Can the creator exist? So I mean, there was neither non existence nor existence. So you know, what's. Yeah.

Brad

How do you make sense of this idea of creator or creation? Could there be a creator? You see what I'm trying to say? Little bit. I don't know, discuss. Maybe you can figure out my question better than I can, but take a few minutes.

Student

Like.

Brad

Sa.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

All right. Insights, questions, confusions. Yeah. Daniel.

Student

Established before, the whole hymn was basically, there is and then there isn't at the same time, the Creator wasn't at the very beginning. And so I wanted to bring up the point of the distinction of possibilities in actuality and how in the hymn, it said it hadn't emerged yet. So I'm still kind of confused, to be honest. But if the create. If possibility and actuality hadn't emerged yet, then personally, I can't really pinpoint or, like, I can't really draw if the Creator had been at the very beginning and then the hymn also ends with, at the end, the Creator might not know.

Brad

Excellent. Great. So we've got the. On the one hand, the Creator might not know or epistemology, but then we've also got this ontology, the ontology of possibility. Ontology. Ontology of actuality. Great. Some great things to. Yeah. Colin.

Student

So kind of what we talked about, like, in our first podcast, too, as well, we talked about, like, causality and how we discussed in class with, like, the milk example.

Brad

Yep.

Student

And how the milk only becomes the cause of the curd only when the milk don't longer exists, and kind of like, brought that back to the idea of the creator. So, like, a quote I kind of have. I think I was like, two lectures ago was, the creator only becomes the cause of creation at the moment the Creator no longer exists. So we kind of use that framework to tie back into what we're kind of discussing with this example. ⚠

Brad

Excellent. So even the idea of a creator, it could have said the creator only becomes the creator at the moment that the creator no longer exists. Right. So it only becomes the cause of creation at the moment that it becomes the effect. Yeah.

Student

Caitlin, There was, like, one line that the. Was there a below? Was there an above that reminded me of. In class, we talked about, like, things being mutually constitutive.

Brad

Yes.

Student

How you, like, drew the coin. And, like, if there's a top of the coin, that means there has to also be, like, a bottom of the coin. And, like, you can't have one without the other. And that's, like, kind of how I was seeing this. Like, if there's, like, say, the creation is the bottom of the coin, there has to be a top of the coin. There has to be something else.

Brad

Excellent. I feel like it's starting to click. Yeah.

Student

I kind of want to go back to what you said about the milk, to the curd from our last class. Like, when the creator becomes creation, we kind of Learn the relationship between the two and, like, how you can continue to go from one to many. And I feel like that relates to the idea of epistemology, how you know what you know from the one, from the transition from one to many, from beginning to the end of it.

Brad

Great. So we've got these differing pairs here, right? These different correlates that have different kinds of relationship. Right. So one is creator, creation, one is knower and known, and one is sort of top and bottom.

Student

Right.

Brad

So. Or inside, outside those sort of mutually constitutive. And so those three relationships or those three pairs have differing kinds of relationships. Right. And this hymn's maybe starting to help us see some of that. Great. Any last thoughts on this hymn before we shift to the next one or questions? Cool. Right now, I do want to just draw your attention briefly. We don't have to say anything about it, but verse four, and the role of desire, or comma. So desire descended upon it. In the beginning, there's this relationship between tamas or heat and desire, and that was the seed of the mind. So there's a relationship also between desire and seed or some sort of beginning. The one that becomes the. The mini seed could be another translation of this Haranyagarbha, This. This golden embryo. So let's. Let's shift into Rigveda121, Haranyagarbha Sukta. And like, before, we'll take a few minutes in your. In your teams, kind of chat about what you want to contribute to the, you know, bigger discourse, and then we'll kind of hear, you know, both from our leaders and from anybody else that wants to chime yajna. ⚠

38:51

Discussion on the Golden Womb and Metaphors of Becoming (Rig Veda 10.121)

Brad

So take a few minutes. Talk about 121.

Student

It. Sam.

Brad

It. Okay. Do you. I. When I. When I wrote this chapter, I was super proud of the. The Nick Cannon line. And I asked my daughter, you know, I read that part to my daughter, and she was like, I don't know who that is or anything about Nick Cannon. Do you know about Nick Cannon? Do you know anything about him? Yeah.

Student

Doesn't he have, like 10 baby tamas

Brad

That's kind of why I mentioned him. Right. I figure, you know, I don't know, but maybe it's. Is it your generation or is he older than y'? All? It's definitely older than my. Than my daughter. Did you watch Nick Canning Growing? He's like a Nickelodeon guy. Yeah, kind of a little bit. YajnavalkyaI thought it was. I was proud of that. And then it just fell flat. YajnavalkyaYeah. So let's roll into 121. Who wants to get us started? Yeah, Danielle.

Student

Also, first of all, the three concepts, the egg yolk, the sun, and then the seed, they all kind of connect to the relationship between the one and the many. And our group kind of focused on the seed a little bit more and how it's the blueprint for the entire universe. Like one seed and then it becomes a plant and then it produces countless seeds, but it still start. Started from one seed. And yet we don't really know where this one seed came from because it had to come from somewhere. And then we connected it to the epistemology, epistemological tension. And so because we're so far removed from that first eater, that first creator of everything, like what God do you honor when we're so far down the line? And then we connected that to your analogy, Nick Cannon and all his different children.

Brad

Great, excellent. Yeah, our group quite focused more on

Student

the yokes and how the great analogy

Brad

for understanding, like there's a difference in

Student

becoming the money instead of creating the money. Yeah. Just clarified it a bit more. The connection between the two.

Brad

Great. Yep. So the idea of becoming and sort of the way that the milk becomes the curd.

Student

Right.

Brad

Yeah, Great.

Student

Jordan, kind of focusing on the. The sun metaphor. We talked about how like the sun continues to be like a life giving source and not just like, like it's still. It was kind of confusing to me cuz it's still there even like while like all the other creation is still there.

Student

So.

Student

But yeah, that one like stood out to us. And also the seed one we thought was like the easiest for us to like wrap our heads around.

Brad

So I think this is an important question we should ask is whether or not this is a text or any of these texts or texts that are about the past. Right. Something that's happened once upon a time or a long time ago. Or are they saying something about the here and now? Like I said this seeds are still here, eggs are still here, the sun is still here. We've still got this process of photosynthesis and metabolization. Right. Those cycles. Great, thanks, Georgia. Yeah, I will just go around. Yeah.

Student

Iona, I guess, like sort of like grappling with the question about like, which God shall we like, offer like our obligation or which God should be like, pay homage to? I was like a little bit confused, like considering like the aygeolk analogy where it's like, it's like the one is becoming the many. So like, wouldn't that be like the same thing? And then also like Thinking about the sun analogy, like, what Georgia was saying about, like, it always being there and it being, like, a continuous source, I was, like, wondering, like, why that's such, like, a, like, big question on, like, who to pay homage to. They're sort of, like, the same thing. But that was just, like, something I was confused about.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts on that question. Yeah. So what is. What is that, you know, the purpose of that sort of refrain, to which God shall we offer our oblation? To which God shall we offer our oblation? Yeah. Yeah. Kaylin, you don't have to answer that question. You can take us anywhere.

Student

The Nick Cannon example kind of helps me understand.

Brad

Right on. Good. A little bit.

Student

Because it's like, all his kids are attributed to. To him, but, like, his kids could have done something, but it's like, do you attribute that to the kid who did that thing or Nick Cannon, who that child came from? It wouldn't exist without.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

I mean, without Nick Cannon, that kid wouldn't even be there. Right. So then does Nick Cannon get all the accolades of all the.

Student

So that's kind of how, like, I understood that question. Like, if everything comes from one mainstream source, but then, you know, different things that come from that main source are also, like, creating things of their own. Who are you attributing to that or attributing it to their main source?

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Kind of like regression backwards, Right?

Brad

Yeah. Great. And as I did try to hint at. Without, you know, killing off Nick Cannon, when I say Nick Cannon is long gone. Right. So the idea is, like, his descendants are still there, but he's not so much. Yeah. Castelia.

Student

That's kind of what I thought about, like, it's kind of like a weird timeline thing, because it's like, it seems like. I feel like when you first read these, it seems very much like stories of the past. But then, like, when that question was brought up about, like, who do we pay homage to? Like, that's kind of a question for the future. Like, when, you know, generous in the past, like, what you just said would, you know, like, are people at that time able to wrap their heads around who Nick Cannon was? Or in this case, case, like, what. Who is, like, the creator or source of everything? Like, would they be able to understand that, or would it need to be someone who's closer to them? And I think that also kind of connects back to, like, limits of knowledge. Like, are we able to, like, wrap our heads around something that happened so long ago to be able to, like, pay reverence to it? ⚠

Student

Or do we need something that's, like, closer to us, that's, like, more painful for us to understand and be able to grasp in order to, like, fully commit to, you know, giving honor to that thing? Like, can we give honor to something that we don't understand is, like, kind of a difficult question.

Brad

Excellent. Yeah. So we could connect that to my lecture from a few weeks ago where I was talking about the murti. Right. And the muerti is like a pitha or a seat. So, you know, one doesn't worship the idol, but instead one regards the idol as, like, a tool. Right. Something that local, something we can get our hands around, something we can. A focal point. Right. That can be used to. To worship the right God that we see through that item. So, yeah, great. Yeah. ⚠

Student

Yeah. I think for us, like, what we talked a lot about was getting the sun analogy because, again, like, how people mentioned before, the sun's always here back to the first hymn. How, like, we talked about, like, how, like, that word was there before everything else came from. So I think in terms of, like, the songs, like, we kind of have to find Uddalaka. Like, who created the sun. The sun's still here that times we talk about, at least, like, the scientific type of things, like with entropy, where energy is not created or destroyed, it's just transferred. So that's what the sun's doing. So I think if they look back and for that homage question is paying, you know, to who maybe created the sun, if it's like the quote, unquote, that one, or if it's someone else that kind of game forward to do this. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, great. I don't. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Kaylin, is it yajna, go ahead.

Student

The sun kind of reminded me when

Student

we talked about the Prusa and the

Student

Prakti, like, the energy and the matter, how the sun is the energy and everything else is the matter. And, like, the sun is like, how you can combine those two kind of like when we talk about the two sheets and, like, the one point being the unity. Without the sun, there would be, like, no unity of energy and matter. So there would it be, like, a person, for example.

Brad

Right on. Great. Yeah. Danielle.

Student

Yeah. I wanted to bring up the point

Student

about how there's no creation without destruction. I thought that really related to the three concepts and how. So, for example, the seed, even though I'm sure it had germinated and, you know, been broken down into the soil, now it's still here. Like the matter that it was made of, which also relates back to the property instead still exists somewhere in maybe current after, like lineages and descendants of the plant and the seas. And so how that there's no creation without destruction is a very common theme throughout all of these concepts. ⚠

Brad

Yeah, great, excellent. And so it also invites us to kind of challenge what we normally think of when we think of birth and death. Right. So birth and death we tend to think of, well, I mean, you know, like I'm born and then I'm going to die. Right. Pretty straightforward. But we think about a seed, Right? So on the one hand, you could say a seed has to die in order for it to grow into a plant. Right. But that doesn't mean that the seed dies. If the seed dies, it doesn't grow into anything. Right, but we still say that. Right. And the text says that, indicating meaning it's no longer a seed. Right. It transforms into another form. Right. So it's the end of that form, but the beginning of a new form that grows out of it. Right. A transformation. And it's not a simple transformation. I mean, for a seed to become a plant, it needs to take in nutrients from the soil and convert other matter and energy into itself. Right. Same way we eat. So back to sort of the Ananda kosha or the.

Brad

We were talking about the koshas, the five sheaths in Ramachandran's text. Right. So one of them is the food sheath, the body. Right. And so that's the body requires inputs and transformations, which is always going to be a death and a birth at the same time. Right. Just death and birth. Then we really want to think of, you know, in terms of transformation as of states. Right. So the death of the milk is the birth of the court occurred. Right. Doesn't necessarily mean that the Kurd is alive. I mean, I mean, it is, but you know what I mean. Good. Anything else on this? M. Yeah, Lily

Student

been brought up with this story.

Brad

It's also the idea of non duality

Student

because you can't have like the seed. You can't have a play without the seed. Like kind of dependent on one another, which is also going back to the plan of one with many. But I think the idea of non duality is also really important, that this story can be translated to the past, the present, but you can't have the plan without the seed. ⚠

Brad

Excellent, great. And you can't have the plant unless the seeds ends being a seed. Right. Which then can lead to other seeds. So it's also a continuous cycle let's do the same thing. Let's roll into. This is going well, I feel. Let's roll into the Purusha Sukta, arguably the most famous of these hymns. And yeah, just roll. We'll do this before. So we'll take a few minutes and teams and kind of talk about. Strategize what you want to bring up. And yeah, we don't just have to hear from our team leader. Team leaders are doing great. Everybody's doing great. So, yeah, exactly what I'm looking for for leadership, but I'd love to broaden it up, so feel free. Since we've heard from our leaders, our leaders can continue talking. But you know what I'm trying to say, open to everyone. Yeah. So take a few minutes and your teams. We'll go to. We'll go five minutes.

Student

Ra.

Brad

It,

Student

Like, Feel like.

Brad

It.

Student

Sh.

Student

I can't drag myself.

57:04

Discussion on the Cosmic Person, Sacrifice, and Varna (Rig Veda 10.90)

Brad

All right, who wants to. Who wants to get us started on this one?

Student

Yeah. Iona, I guess this time was sort of about like the. The, like, creation of the universe is like a ritual, like, dismemberment of like, the purusha And something that we, like, focused on in our group was, like, how the one that's being sacrificed is also the one, like, performing the ritual. And I think that sort of, like, leads into, like, our earlier conversations about, like, non. Duality and like. And like, the discussion about, like, the different, like, images of like, the like, golden embryo. Because it's like, like, I don't know, like the egg yolk is sort of like disappearing in order to, like, become something else. But, like, it's also like, ever present with the analogy of the sun. So I feel like, I don't know, this sort of like, further, like, articulated that.

Brad

Excellent. Great. Seems some great connections between them. Sorry. Yeah, we'll just go around. Yeah.

Student

Kaylin, we actually had a question. So in the fifth paragraph, it says, from Penn born, from Farage, the Prusa is born. And then like, once it goes on, it's like from the Prusa sacrifice that created everything. So we were a little confused of, like, that part. And like, yeah, it made us think about the first one and how it's like this question of who like was created. Like, you know, who are we supposed to attribute this to?

Brad

Right.

Student

That just kind of confused us.

Student

We didn't know if it was just

Student

a lack of context because, you know, this is, like, kind of taken out of context.

Brad

Yes, it is. And that's a good insight that there could be missing context here. But I think most Folks, you know, I mean, that is super open to interpretation. And, you know, Hindu theologians interpret that in probably all the possible ways that it could be interpreted. And so what does that mean? From him Viraj was born. From Viraj, the purusha was born. And so, yeah, it's a really important question, and I don't want to give my answer to it. You know, I mean, I don't think there is a straightforward answer to it, but really important question. So. Yeah, and we can continue exploring that. Yeah. Viewer.

Student

I mean, I think another question that came up for me is like, more about, like, the context on, like, who and when this was written. Because I think a lot of, like, looking at like a current standpoint is like, basically what I see is, like, this game is very much what reinforced the caste system. And odds are it's probably written by someone who was part of the barometer cast. And so they're gonna write something that makes them kind of in a place that makes them like the quote unquote, top of the caste system. ⚠

Brad

And I think that's what kind of

Student

a lot of this hymn really does. Just reinforces that and really kind of puts people into specific brackets.

Brad

Okay. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of the uber text, if you will, on. On the. The varna system. Yeah. Castle.

Student

So after I read this, like, I. I also felt that. So then I was like, kind of like searching and like, I wanted to see if, like, this is what people, like, credit to, like, forming the caste system.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And, like, I did see that, like, this was something that was like, you know, that people draw from for that. But I also thought of it as, like, not so much like, this is now the positions in which you're placed in society. Like, as it would become in the cast. Maybe this initial text was just saying, like, when you are born out of sacrifice of purusha like, everyone isn't that, like, to me meant, like, everyone is inherently born with some form of meaning and, like, with purpose already. And no matter what sector of society you end up falling into, like, you are still part of that purpose and, like, you have that meaning. So, like, even if you are in like, the lowest caste, like, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're not important. And also that, like, because they were all like, like parts of Purusha, like, you meet each part, like, you're not going to function as well if you don't have feet or if you don't have arms or, like, you're inhibited in some way. So, like, they all go together.

Student

So I thought it was more of like, you know, like more of like a consular thing of, like, if you find yourself in that position, like, don't be upset about it because you're still like, part of the whole.

Brad

Yeah, good. So not necessarily a hierarchy, although if we think of a person standing up, then on the most literal level, the mouth is above the feet. Right. But it wouldn't be above anything if the feet weren't there. Right. So you kind of neti neti all of those aspects. Yeah, great.

Student

Yeah.

Student

What stood out to our group the most was. And of course, this is considered the most significant. And you can tell it's quite old because it directly relates to the four classifications that we touched upon earlier, the bartness of society. And it was interesting. The point we brought up was the world is a broken but unified body. And this hymn provides a rationale for this social structure. And so it's interesting to see how it's like the inherent sacredness of all existence, kind of. And it's directly correlated to this hymn that has been passed down through generations. And as you said, like, it's still a golden nugget. That is very important. ⚠

Brad

Great. Yeah. So just because I walk on the soil or I walk on the grass doesn't necessarily mean that the grass is any less, you know, the purusha than I am. Right. It's not necessarily that I'm more important than the grass that I'm walking upon. Right. Or the feet that I'm walking upon. But that all are part of one whole. Right. Not discounting the sort of. The social, you know, downsides of casteism as it know, later develops. So I'm not trying to whitewash that at all. But, yeah, really important point. Good. Folks we haven't heard from yet. Anybody want to chime in, jump in questions? Yeah, Lily, I really part I was

Student

kind of confused about is, like, during the actual poem when it says that one fourth of himself was given to the beings in the world and that 3/4 of himself was spread into all directions, especially immortal.

Student

Immortal.

Student

I kind of like, made a think about the significance of that and the significance of the specific numbers of it.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And why it wouldn't be happen. Why they chose to write it like that.

Brad

Yeah. I mean, there again, like, you know, I don't have an answer to that. I'm not sure that there is an answer to that, but it is important. And so this is a crazy important hymn that gets quoted, you know, by all of the upanishads, by all the commentators. It's super important. And that particular point. Yeah. Verse four, with three quarters, the purusha rose upward and one quarter of him remained here below. And from this he's spread out. By the way, the pronoun he is referring to purusha, which is non gendered, so it's actually non gendered in the text too. But from this he spread out in all directions. So. Yeah. So the 3/4 and the 1/4. This is something that's mentioned quite often, like I said in the upanishads and in the commentaries and interpret it in a wide array of ways. What are some of the ways? Yeah, I don't know. What do you make of it? I mean you don't have to have a definitive interpretation, but it's worth taking note of. Thank you for pointing it out. Yeah. Castilea.

Student

Maybe it's just to emphasize that the heavens are like let's of the earth is like more expansive and more. I don't know, I don't know if it's more important but like more expansive than what's on earth. Like maybe that's just the difference between

Student

the 1/4 and 3/4.

Student

Just to show that there is a separation and maybe to like maintain some of that reverence for like the thing like above us and like things that we might not know.

Brad

So even if I knew everything in the world and controlled everything in the world and was the king of the world still only a quarter. Right. Yeah, I think that's a good insight. Yeah. Daniel.

Student

Yeah, I agree with everyone. What everyone was saying earlier. I kind of wanted to bring up the connection of sacrifice.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

I thought about Christianity when I read this part of the hymn and how the world wouldn't be what it is without the one person who was sacrificed.

Brad

Remind.

Student

Reminded me about how Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for everyone came after. So that was kind of correlation between Hinduism and Christianity.

Brad

Yeah, great. Excellent. Really important. This is about sacrifice. This is. You can't talk about this hymn without talking about sacrifice. The importance of the sacrifice. Here we have. We seem to have the creation of the sacrifice. Right. Where's the line? I mean we have. Yeah. Verse six. Right. When the gods perform the sacrifice with the purusha as the oblation, meaning the ablation, meaning what is being sacrificed. Right. Like. Like Jesus or the lamb. And so that's sacrificial, but here it's the person. Right. So in the beginning was this one person. There was nothing else but that one person. And then so that person sort of like the milk needs to, you know, dis. We can Come back to this word that Diona brought up for us. Dismemberment, right? If we think about dismemberment, so how could this one person become the many? Right? So there's definitely a sacrifice there. So it's definitely a sacrifice at the very least in the way that the seed becomes, you know, the seed is sacrificed to become the plant, right? But the plant in some way is the seed also. Or the milk is sacrificed to become the curd.

Brad

But there's. There's different ways for that sacrifice or dismemberment to happen, right? So on the one hand, you know, we've got, you know, we could have the one sort of, you know, in the beginning was this just one homogeneous one, you know, sort of like an egg yolk, right? So that homogeneous, everything was one. And then it unfolds, right, as the diversity, as the diverse members, like the gen. Chicken legs and beaks and feathers and buffalo wings and right? Then it can be transformed into other things and whatever. So that's not exactly a dismemberment, right? It's sort of. It's more of an unfolding. So I keep using that term, unfolding, but it could also be, you know, more literally a dismemberment, right, where the members are becoming many, right? So here in the way one Nick Cannon is becoming many Nick Cannons. I don't think that one worked so much, but. No, what do you think. Think worth lingering on that word dismemberment? So member meaning, like, you know, my arms and my hands and my ears and. Right. All of these are members of my body.

Brad

And if I'm dismembered, that would be, you know, like the. Like the Monty Holy Grail, right? The knight, you know, it's only a flesh wound now that dismembered meant. My son would love that one. Thoughts? Final few minutes. Yeah.

1:09:04

Synthesis of Sacrifice and Comparative Theology with Christianity

Student

In verse 11, it says, like, when they divided the Purusha.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

Parts of the arrangement. I feel like the, like, the word choice there of like, dividing and then like parts and arrangement of parts kind of makes you think of dismemberment, right? Then unfolding. Like you think, okay, like they're dividing up the body, like breaking it apart and like, so that they can arrange it however they want with, like, the pieces.

Brad

So that sounds a lot more like this kind of dismember, right? Like more like va. That sort of atomism, right? The bit one, the big bang becomes all these billions of atoms which are separate and distinct. Yeah.

Student

Anna, Like, I think that this kind

Student

of contradicts like the egg yolk analogy. Because when you're describing that, you're like, no matter how many times you like separate the egg yolk, like, it's still just egg yolk, like it's nothing more. Whereas, like this it's like physically dividing the prusa, like into these other things. Whereas the egg yolk couldn't be divided. Like it just becomes the feathers and like the legs and stuff. So the two stories kind of contradict each other.

Brad

So there's a tension there. And how do we. So then from a Hindu theological perspective, we would have to say. We can't say, right, that one of these texts is right and one of them is wrong. All of it's the shruti. So then we have to learn to hear these in a way that's harmonious. If they clash, then it's not that the texts clash, it's that our interpretation of it is flawed. Right. It would be a Hindu way of thinking of it.

Student

Yeah, I guess, like, also like, another interpretation that I sort of took from like Haim2 was when it like, sort of like dis described like the one as like more of like an impersonal, like, creative force. And like, I didn't really take that to be like a specific body, to be like dismembered or anything. So I guess like, that was something a little bit confusing for me. And I feel like that sort of like, like is like a distinguishing like factor between like Hinduism and Christianity where there's like even what you were saying about like how like, like the one isn't like gender or something. Like it's not like a body or like a physical like, person, like God, like typically like is, I guess like in Christian theology. So I guess like that was just like another thing that sort of like.

Brad

Yeah. I mean, could you even have male and female before you have both? Right. I mean you, you can't have. There can't be a male without a female. Right. I mean they're, they cope. Mutually constitutive correlates. Right? Yeah. So then there's this sort of non gendered person that then becomes these different things which would include males and females. But yeah, really important point. Last word. Anybody? Well, I'll take the last words. So I think one thing we have to remember is kind of along the lines of what I said a moment ago, which is that we have to remember that all three of these texts and so many more besides these three, you know, there's not just one creation story. All of these are the shruti. All of them are part of the same Veda. They're even part of the same Rigveda. Right. So the Rigveda seemed includes all of these. And I just chose three out of, like, literally hundreds. Right. And I chose these for lots of different reasons. But if we had more, I would love to choose some that are quite different than these. Right. So then what does that. ⚠

1:12:40

Closing Reflections on Textual Tensions

Brad

Yeah, what do we do with that? When texts seem quite different from one another, do we take it? Yeah, what do we do with that? Basically, yeah. Kind of a lingering question that can carry us into Thursday. Everybody have an idea? Everybody know who the leaders are for Thursday? Okay, cool. See you then.