Hindu and Christian Theologies in Dialogue

01/29/2026 · Tue/Thu 12:00-1:15 PM · Brad Bannon · Boston College

📄 Synopsis

In this session, Instructor Brad Bannon transitions from the foundational methodology of phenomenology to the specific theological school of Advaita Vedanta. The class begins with administrative guidance on the first podcast assignment, emphasizing the use of the phenomenological method—identifying a 'thing itself,' describing the phenomenon, and engaging in listening—to explore sacred texts. The core of the lecture focuses on the 8th-century theologian Shankara and his non-dualist (Advaita) worldview as interpreted by contemporary scholar Anantanand Rambachan. Through the metaphor of the 'Pancha Kosha' or five sheaths, the class explores how the permanent self (Atman) is distinguished from physical and mental layers. Brad utilizes several analogies, including the relationship between matter and energy (E=mc²) and the heads and tails of a coin, to explain the concept of 'not two' (Advaita). The discussion concludes with an investigation into the nature of consciousness, arguing that awareness is distinct from memory and that the self is the underlying reality behind various physical and mental sheaths.

⚡ Key Takeaways

The phenomenological method involves identifying the 'thing itself,' describing the phenomenon through analogies or personal experience, and prioritizing listening to others.
Advaita literally means 'not two,' signifying a reality that denies ontological duality without necessarily asserting a simple numerical oneness.
The 'Pancha Kosha' (five sheaths) is a scriptural metaphor from the Taittiriya Upanishad used to describe the layers of the body and mind that veil the permanent self.
Shankara (8th century) and Ramanuja (11th/12th century) are the two most influential theologians within the Uttara Mimamsa or Vedanta school.
The relationship between Atman and Brahman is described as being 'not two,' similar to how matter and energy are distinct yet fundamentally related in physics (E=mc²).
The analogy of a coin's heads and tails illustrates how two things can be distinct (ontically) but inseparable from the same single object (ontologically).
Pramana refers to a valid means of knowledge; the instructor specifically highlights Brahman as a focus within this framework.
Awareness is distinguished from memory; for example, a baby is aware of hunger even if they do not form a lasting memory of the experience.
The 'Annamaya kosha' (referred to in the transcript as the food sheath) is the outermost physical layer of the self, which is less permanent than the internal 'I'.
The podcast assignment requires teams to record a 20-25 minute unedited discussion using specific naming conventions and shared leadership roles.

🎤 Transcript Tap any timestamp to jump the audio player

Opening Stillness and Meditation

Brad

Howdy.

Brad

Take a moment to be still and just transition.

Student

It.

Brad

Let's take one breath together. Breathe in

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and out.

Brad

Word.

1:12

Attendance and Administrative Announcements

Brad

All right. I am still learning names. Normally, I'll take attendance as folks walk in the door, but Hannah. Hannah. Felipe. No. Blake. Max. Alice. Sophia. Aiden. No. Aiden. Nathan. I think Nathan dropped Lucas.

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Jake.

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Jake. No. Jake. Hei. Ching.

Brad

No.

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He. Ching. And francis. Okay, so we're missing felipe, aiden, nathan, jake.

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Aiden.

Brad

Yeah. Okay, so we're missing Felipe, Nathan, Jake, Pei, Chang, and Francis. Yeah. Everybody else here? All right, cool.

Brad

In the game, no quiz today.

Brad

Crazy, right? I do have makeup quizzes if anybody wants to take them after class. I have office hours after class, and

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somebody asked me about a deadline for making up the quizzes.

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I think

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general rule, let's say by

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the end of the next unit. Yeah. So this is the end of unit one. So if you're going to make up a quiz from unit one, you should make it up before the end of unit two. Yeah, seems fair. In general, most units are two weeks long, so that gives you plenty of time.

Brad

And if you are not available during my office hours, you can make up

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the quiz right before this class. If you get here early enough so you can make it up between my previous section and this section just right here in class, or if that also doesn't work for you, then it is possible to make them up online. So if you just follow the instructions and in the syllabus for making up an absence, and, you know, you could just. I can just ask you the quiz questions when we meet.

Brad

You can't make up.

Brad

You can't do a makeup until after we've had our initial meeting, though. So I want you to. That's the more important part. Right. The quizzes are tiny fraction of your final grade, whereas the meeting is 5% of your final grade. So make sure that you're prioritizing that. Cool.

Brad

I want to make sure that everybody's

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in a team and that our teams are finalized.

4:31

Team Finalization and Leadership Assignments

Brad

So let's start by gathering together in

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your teams, and then we'll kind of assign some numbers, and then anybody who's unsure about their team or team is in flux. They. And we can work that out. Yeah. So go ahead and gather physically together with your teammates.

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Does anybody not have a team? So Dylan and anybody else not have a team? Does anybody have a team of fewer than four? Okay, wait, you got three. Oh, okay, so you have four.

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Just Jake's not here.

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Okay. When's the last time Jake was here? Okay, so we assume Jake's still On the course. Okay. Anybody else?

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Okay.

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Yeah, I don't either. Yeah,

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you two and Francis and Dylan.

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Yeah. So is that good?

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So.

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Yeah. So. Okay, good. So you're on a team now. Francis also emailed me coming today, so hopefully he'll be here again, but.

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All right, so then everybody has a

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team and everybody has nobody. Does anybody have a team that's more than four fire? All right, so let's get some teams down then.

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I'm just going to go in clockwork order.

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So y' all will be team 11? Yeah. So let me get. Let me grab your names real fast, so. Oh, this is going to be hard. Yeah. Let's do the pieces of paper again. I do have the ones that you

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wrote down last time.

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Okay. That's the other class. For some reason, I don't have all of them, though.

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I don't have one from you.

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So can you all just write down your names on a piece of paper and put team 11 and then we'll have you be team 12. Yeah. Do I have yours? Okay.

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Yep.

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So you'll be team 12 and then team 13.

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You're good with 13?

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Yeah.

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Any objection to 13?

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Okay, fine. Do I have one from you?

Brad

Oh, my gosh.

Student

I'm sorry.

Student

I can give you half a picture.

Brad

So 14.

Student

I'll be 14.

Brad

You'll be 15.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

And then 16, 17, and 18.

Brad

Yeah, I do have Wilts. Craft thing. Right,

Brad

Right. Because you made one.

Student

Yeah.

Brad

Okay. Okay.

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And then, well, Isabella Sophia.

Student

Wait, are you.

Brad

Well, Okay, no, fine, fine.

Brad

All right, give me your attention just for a second. Okay, so go ahead and chat with your teammates, maybe trade some contact info, start a group chat or whatever you need to do and chat about when you want to meet. As a team, it's best, if possible,

Brad

to meet in person, but you can also meet remotely. But, you know, it's good to have the little eye contact and that kind of stuff. So try to find a time if you can meet together in person.

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And as far as deadline, I mean,

Brad

I like to have that. I would like to have them by, say, you know, midnight on Monday night. Would prefer to have them, you know, Sunday night, actually, but, you know, midnight

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Monday night, if you are.

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If I know that one of the most difficult thing, maybe the most difficult thing about the assignment is scheduling it and finding a time that works for everybody. So I'm pretty flexible on that, especially for the first couple, you know. So if you just absolutely can't meet before Monday night, then let me know that. But otherwise, take a few minutes, figure Out. So, two things. One is when you're going to meet,

Brad

and the other thing is what you'd

Brad

like your Leadership Day to be for unit two. You don't have to plan any further than that. We'll just plan for unit two. So unit two will be four classes, right?

Brad

Tuesday, Thursday, Tuesday, Thursday.

Brad

So just make sure that you're available to be here on your leadership Day. And however you dvaita it up is. Is fine. So. So decide those two things.

Student

Thank you.

13:59

Podcast Assignment Instructions and Phenomenological Method

Brad

Good, good, good. All right, good. Let me go over what I'd like

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you to talk about in podcast one. So the format for this one will

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be slightly different than for future ones, but I'll say more about future ones when we get.

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So for this yajna like you to follow this basic order. So start with.

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Start by introducing yourselves.

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You know, I'm Wilkes. I do this. I'm the whatever. Just to introduce yourself, say your name

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and whatever you want.

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Also, I don't know, I'd love for

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there to be something funny in there, not only for my benefit, but especially for your benefit. Just kind of start off with the right vibe.

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You know, start off telling a joke

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or singing a song, maybe not dancing because it's audio.

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So. But whatever.

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Play viola. Good. Do whatever you want. I don't know, just play. Just do something fun, funny, fun. Get people laughing.

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Then I'd like you to talk about each one of these things, and I'd

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like everybody to talk about all of them.

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It's maybe a good idea to have, you know, each person take.

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I don't like it if, like, one

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person takes a full leadership role for the whole thing, right? So pass off leadership like, you know,

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have one person kind of start off this, and then everybody say something about

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it and another person, you know, introduce another topic. Right? So kind of make sure you're sharing leadership roles, leadership responsibility. We'll be a little bit more regimented

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about that in future podcasts, but this one, just however you want to do it. I want everybody talking about all of these things, and I want different people kind of leading or heading up the discussion. So this is basically from opening day, right?

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phenomenology and the phenomenological method.

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Super critically important. So talk about that.

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This is a great time.

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If there's any part of these things

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that you're not sure about that you're confused about, that's a great thing to talk about in the podcast, right?

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Because the chances that any of you

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understand all of it is very small. And the chances that, you know, all of you understand, none of it are very small, right?

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So chances are pretty good that, you know, through your discussions, you might, you know, find out that you know different parts of it, or you.

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You can learn from one another, right?

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You can learn from the discussion.

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So phenomenology, I want to make sure

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that I've been clear enough about the phenomenological method.

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I know I was pretty clear about phenomenology the first day, and I talked about phenomenological method and a theological method in chapter one. But just to be super clear, right? So phenomenological method is basically this,

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I like to say, step zero, draw a circle.

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Step one, vaguely identify whatever the thing

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itself is, whatever thing you're talking about, right?

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So in this case, it'll be phenomenology in the phonological method. But, you know, whatever it is that

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you're talking about, if you're talking about

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brahmana then say, I want to

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talk about brahmana right?

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That's what I mean by vaguely identifying the thing itself, something that anchors the discourse. If we're talking about. When we get to the text portions

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with the next unit, then you know,

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be like, hey, I want to talk about this verse, or I want to talk about this section of verses or whatever from this text, right?

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It'd be easier. And then describe the phenomenon.

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So remember, the phenomenon is up here, right?

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So the text or the thing itself or whatever we're talking about is different than the phenomenon. So then describe the phenomenon. If you have questions or confusions, if

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you have a helpful analogy or metaphor,

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if you can relate it to your.

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If you can relate it to your experiences, if you can relate it to your expertise and your, you know, whatever

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you're becoming a professional in, then great, right?

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If you can relate it to finance or biology or whatever you're studying, then that's whatever you say about it, right? And then the next step of the phenomenological method is to listen. So just say, you know, hey, what

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do y' all think? Or ask a question for discussion or whatever.

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So the most of the method is listening, right? So just start by. And everybody should have something to say, you know, about the thing itself and

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their understanding of it. So that's what I mean by the phenomenological methods. Good.

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This is basically just chapter one, right? So theology, but really focus, you know, theology as a way of seeing.

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I think you can tackle all three

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sections of that chapter, you know, by focusing on vision. So Anselm way of you know, seeing

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and being seen by God and theology

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is a way of seeing our neighbors more clearly.

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Seeing through texts that I talked about

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with Clooney.

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Yeah. Etc. New ways to see ourselves and that sort of stuff. Also, the six ways of seeing the six perspectives.

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Don't feel like you have to cover these in detail.

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Right.

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I would prefer, you know, a quick

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overview of things and then diving into things that you're unsure about. It's always better, I think, to focus on things that you're unclear about or, you know, curious about or, you know,

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obviously, if you have perspectives on it, the Prabhanas. So really just these four, and maybe especially brahmana Yeah, I think the other three are pretty straightforward.

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And then lastly, focus on this text by Rambachan, which we're going to discuss more today. So we'll go through it today and. Good.

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So pretty clear on what I'm looking for in the podcast. Some general notes about the podcast. Like I said, you can meet in person or remotely. I think it's better generally to meet

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in person whenever possible.

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When you meet in person, the easiest

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thing to do is just take somebody's cell phone and just hit the record

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button and set the phone down in

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the middle of everybody.

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So everybody should be kind of equal,

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distant from it, you know, ish.

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And just leave it there.

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You don't need to. You don't need to pause, you don't need to edit. Don't edit actually. Right.

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You don't need to do any of that.

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Just hit start and talk and then

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hit stop and then you're done.

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Right.

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And don't. I would prefer that you not, like,

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move it around so people, like, move it closer to everybody. And then what happens is I'm listening to it and it's like, you know, I can hear Samuel really clearly or have to turn the volume up or something. And then they slide it across the table and it's like, you know, it's like deafening. And so just leave it somewhere in the middle. Should be fine. Not looking for professional quality recordings. I just need to be able to hear everybody and prefer if it's kind of more or less at the same volume. You get the idea.

Brad

Try, especially for the first couple of podcasts, to use each other's names very often.

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You know, I mean, some of.

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I know some of your name, I

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know some of your voices already. I'm pretty good at connecting names, voices, pretty good at learning voices, but obviously I have to learn them first. And right now I don't know them. So you know as often as you can. You know, you could just say, hey, this is Boris speaking. Or, you know, hey, Devin, what do you think? Or that's a really good point, Sophia. That sort of thing. Right. So try to use each other's names or to use your own name, just kind of so I know who's talking when so that I can learn your voices. But like I satya learn them pretty quick. But it'll take me a couple of podcasts to get them down.

Brad

That's pretty much it. Any questions?

Brad

Oh, wait, there is one more thing. Yeah, go ahead.

Student

How long should the podcast be?

Brad

So I think, as a general rule, around 20 minutes. Yeah, this one.

Brad

Yeah, I think probably 20 minutes is a pretty good guideline.

Brad

So, yeah,

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I think less than 20 minutes would be too short and over

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30 minutes would be too long. So. But 20 minutes is usually about right. 20, 25 minutes is usually right on.

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They do tend to get longer as

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the semester goes on, right? People get towards the end of the semester and you find out, actually a lot more to say and the conversations get better.

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I don't really mind if it's long,

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as long as it's interesting and good to listen to. If I'm enjoying listening to it, then it doesn't feel long. You know what I'm saying?

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I'm not concerned about silence. Silence is not a problem.

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So if, you know, if there's silence,

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just let it sit. Silence can be.

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Silence can be fruitful and productive. In my experience, you know, there's typically some silence in the first few episodes and then less as you get more comfortable with each other. Silence is not a problem.

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The last thing is naming it, so be sure that you name the file.

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Following my convention, this is in the syllabus, and those of you who've done

Brad

it before already know this. So every file should be named like this, right?

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So bc, because I also teach at Fitchburg State, right. So that way I just got all my BC files.

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It's easy to spot. So bc, that stands for Boston College. And then underscore, just to make it

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easy to read T for team.

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And then in here you'll be, you

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know, whatever your team number is. So team 11, 12, 13, whatever.

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Then another underscore, and then the letter

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E for episodes, and then the number of the episodes. So for everybody right now, it'll be E1.

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Everybody's podcast will be named exactly the

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same for episode one.

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Just the only thing that'll be different is your team number.

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Then hopefully you know the difference between

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a file name and a file extension?

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If you do not, then now is

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the time to learn.

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So this is the file name. Whatever the file extension is, just leave

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it, whatever it is.

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Right. Don't change the file extension because then it won't play, it won't work.

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So leave it, whatever it is. In most cases, it's going to be

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M4A or MP3, might be MP4 if you're doing a video, but just leave the file extension as it is and just change the file name. Yep, good. Any questions about that?

Brad

So I will create folders for each

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team and the folder just based on basically be like T11 and that'll be the folder name, and then I'll share the folder with everybody on your team. So everybody on your team will have access to the folder and me. And nobody outside of your team except for me will have access to your folder. So these are very private. You don't have to worry about anybody hearing it except for me and the other people on your team. And there are people on your team probably aren't going to listen to it

Brad

because they were in it.

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Right.

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But I do it that way because I really feel like it should be a group effort.

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Everybody is responsible for uploading it. That doesn't mean that everybody on the

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team should upload it. Just means maybe Miggy volunteers very graciously, like, hey, I'll record it and upload it, which is a super nice thing to do.

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But then the other people on the

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team should kind of follow through and just make sure it happens, you know, and if Mickey gets busy or something happens and forgets, then, you know, just like reach out and say, hey, you know, I don't see it in the folder yet. Right.

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So that way everybody's sort of responsible for it, and it doesn't just fall

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to the one person who's kind enough to volunteer. Make sense?

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But like I satya pretty, pretty chill about due dates, especially in the first

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half of the semester. So when we get closer to the end, then, you know, ready for summer. So let's get this stuff done. Questions? Right on.

27:45

Lecture: Introduction to Advaita Vedanta and Shankara

Brad

Cool.

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Then I want to spend today mostly

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talking about Adreta, mostly talking about this 10 text. And

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in a moment, we'll go back into teams. We'll do more team chatting today, and

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maybe we can get some questions or

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some discussion about the text going through. But before we do that, I just

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want to make sure that you have plenty of context, because I know some folks, there's so much in this course and it can get a little overwhelming, all these terms and how does everything feel and that kind of stuff.

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So I want to make sure that

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you've got plenty of context.

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Right, so so far we've talked about

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the nastika traditions, right, Those who say

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yes to the Veda and among those

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there's the Shaddarshana, the six orthodox perspectives,

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the six schools or perspectives that hold

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the Veda, you know, as sacred and authoritative

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as a brahmana you could say. And then we went through most of those the other day and as I said, we're going to spend most of

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our time this semester talking about the last two, Purimimamsa and Uttaramimamsa. And actually we'll spend most of the time talking about Uttarmamsa.

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And within that perspective, that school of thought.

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Yeah, within that Darshana there's two.

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These are, these are I think safe

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to say the two most famous, most influential Hindu theologians probably period, but certainly within this school.

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So.

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And they're quite different.

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They do the.

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Yeah, we're going to talk about both of them though.

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So within Uttar Min Mamseb there's these two main figures.

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One is Shankara who I've mentioned so many times, right. I mentioned Shankara within the first five minutes of the first day. His commentary on that mantra, right, that I gave the first day. He talked about the shakti shakti shakti right? Peace in your bodies, peace in your

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mind and peace in your heart. So that's from Shankara. And this text that you're reading today, the adoita Worldview Chapter 3 was written by this guy Rambachan who's a professor

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at St Olaf College in Minnesota and

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he's an expert in Shankara, one of

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the world experts in Shankara. But yeah, super, super cool dude.

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And so that's what this text is about.

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So just for plenty of context, right, so we're talking about advaita vedanta.

Brad

Oh, Shankara school is called advaita vedanta. So vedanta is another name for Uttarman Mamasa because it's focused on the end of the Veda, which is what vedanta means. And so Shankara is the head of this school or the originator, kind of

Brad

the greatest theologian within this school of thought.

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advaita vedanta. And then a few centuries later. So Shankara was 8th century Hindu theologian from southern India and then Ramanuja,

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I could get the dates wrong but 11th century, ish, plus or minus a century, but around 11th, 12th century. Also in southern India.

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And his school of thought is called vishishtadvaita vedanta. So the same word advaita vedanta, but

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with this prefix Vishishta, which means qualified. Right? So like I said, sort of an asterisk.

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We'll talk more about Ramanuja. We'll talk more about Ramanuja in that school later.

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But just trying to give you some context. So now we're talking about Rambhachand's reading of Shankara and the advaita school. And this text is called the advaita Worldview.

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Also a note about pronunciation. I pronounce this word advaita.

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Usually

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I pronounce it that way because

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that's how my guru pronounced it. That's how my teacher pronounces it. And so part of habit, but honestly, more out of respect for him, that's

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how I pronounce it in the US Especially, and in northern India.

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So it is one of those things where, like, folks in northern India tend to pronounce it a little differently than folks in southern India. So in the south, they more likely to say advaita. In the north, they're more likely to say advaita. So pronouncing the V as a V instead of a double U, right? Which is actually a double V. So it kind of makes sense. But yajna it doesn't really matter how you pronounce it. I'm just sort of explaining, right? That's why I pronounce it the way I do.

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So super common in the US for people to say advaita But I say

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advaita But the more important than how

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you pronounce it is what it means. And it means not to a meaning

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not, and DVTA meaning to, like dual.

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So sometimes it's translated non dual, which is also fine.

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But literally it means not to.

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So obviously I think it's obvious in order to understand Adreta, you have to

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understand what is being said is not two, right? What are the two things that are being denied? Tunis. So what is it that's not two.

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Rambachand wrote this other.

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This other book.

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He's written quite a few. But this other really awesome book that

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I've used in this course

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in previous versions, maybe we'll draw from it later in the semester. But his other really excellent book called the Hindu Theology of Liberation is the

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title, and then the subtitle is Not Two is not One. So again, the negation here of duality is super important, right?

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It's not oneness and it's not two ness.

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It's not two ness.

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So what the hell does that mean?

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Well, we'll get there.

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And like I said today, this is

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really just kind of our first dive into a dweta. We're going to continue coming back to it.

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We're going to continue studying it all semester.

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And so this is just our first foray into it. Good. Rest of that, we're going to postpone for the moment.

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Any questions about anything I just said.

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All right? And if any of the things come up, then we'll have plenty of time.

35:02

Small Group Discussion: Rambachan Text Analysis

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But I wanted you to take, you know, until a quarter till, so, you

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know, eight or nine minutes, something around then in your teams and just focus on this text. Right. It's a challenging text.

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Right.

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Challenging read, difficult read.

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So, you know, anything in there that

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you're confused about, anything that you want

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to, you know, ask about. Great. If there's anything in there that you accomplish, kind of think you understand and

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you want to give it a shot,

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like, hey, does this mean this? Or whatever. Bonus. Great. Anything in there.

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If you're totally at a loss for

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what to say, then you could talk about that. The very famous parable of the 10th person right at the beginning of the sentence. Right. So just take. Yeah, take till then. Go for it.

Student

There. Better.

Brad

That.

Student

It. Really good office. It's way harder to.

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Graduating.

Student

It.

Brad

All right.

45:51

Class Discussion: Atman, Brahman, and the Five Sheaths

Brad

Two quick things I forgot to mention before. One is those of you who've had

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me before are familiar with my neuroses.

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So chapter six is done.

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Chapter six is fully ready for you to read. None of the other chapters are.

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So chapter six is ready.

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Go for it.

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Chapter seven through 13 right now are just.

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They are the primary texts. So that is kind of the star of the show. So the primary texts are in there. But as with chapter six, you know, I plan to write some introductions to give you some more context.

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And I've actually kind of.

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It's just sort of happened. You know, when you're creating a course like this, you follow leads and follow rabbit holes. And chapter seven became really sort of an important anchor there. So I want to rate that chapter carefully. But I also know that, you know,

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you got to read it.

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We're going to discuss it next week. So I got to get on my horse. And I mean, I'm not going to get on my horse because the snow is very deep and I'm terrified of riding the horse, to be honest. And it's also my daughter's horse, so. But metaphorically, I need to get my ass into gear and get it written. So I'm going to get that asap.

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But worst case scenario, you've got the

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primary text and that's kind of the most important thing. So I just want to say that

Brad

the other thing is working with a group project. Sometimes working with group members can be challenging.

Brad

Less so at Boston College because usually everybody's pretty on top of the ball, but sometimes you get folks that aren't so in top of the ball. Right.

Brad

So if you're working with somebody and

Brad

they don't show up, if you have a time. Agreed. Right. We're gonna do it on Sunday at 4pm and then they don't show up. You know, maybe give them 10 minutes, but if they're not there at 4:10, then just go without them. Yeah. So all grades are individual. It's not a group project, even though it is group discussion.

Brad

So all grades are individual. If you along the same lines, if

Brad

you're like trying to schedule it and

Brad

three out of the four people always

Brad

respond, and then one person just never responds, you know, I mean, go with it.

Brad

Right?

Brad

Give it your best shot.

Brad

But if they're not responding, that's on them. Right. Not on you. So I don't want you to bend over backwards for one person that keeps like, you know, or sometimes you like schedule it and then they cancel at the last minute.

Brad

I mean, go for it, you know what I mean?

Brad

That's kind of on them, you know what I'm saying?

Brad

I mean, if they break their leg

Brad

or something, then, you know, have some grace, but err on the side of just doing it rather than, you know, bending over backwards for somebody. Cool.

Brad

This text. So any questions, thoughts, things that came

Brad

out of your discussions?

Brad

What do you think? It's a challenging text, right? Challenging read.

Brad

I feel like it's one of those

Brad

things where once you get it, then

Brad

it all kind of clicks. Yeah.

Brad

Nick, obviously we're pretty collectively confused on the sheath example.

Brad

Sure.

Brad

Yeah.

Brad

So one way would be think of like an onion. Right.

Brad

So the pancha kosha, the five she sheaths, you could think about like an onion.

Brad

Right.

Brad

Like you.

Brad

You peel off one and then there's more in there.

Brad

Right.

Brad

So you keep different layers technically, I mean, kosher means sheath in the way

Brad

that like a sword goes into its sheath. Right. So the point being that there. That there's almost no distance between 1 and it's 1 sheath inside of another sheath inside of another sheath. So you could look at it.

Brad

Yeah, like layers.

Brad

Let's look at a little passage from that section

Brad

and this is. This is a.

Brad

An example of the Pancha kosha, the five sheaths. This is an example that comes from the scriptures. It's not from. It's not like a metaphor or something. I mean, it is a metaphor, but it's. Where is that? Do you have it? 38.

Student

38.

Brad

Oh, yeah. Here I wrote like an onion, so. From the Taittiriya upanishads by the way, that mantra that I gave the first day of class, that's from the Taittiriya upanishads advaita distinguishes the self from what is referred to as the five sheaths. Physical, subtle, and causal bodies. These are more of a detailed subdivision

Brad

of the body, mind, and senses. So you could think about, like, okay, I am my body, right? I am my hands, I am my

Brad

fingers, I am my toes, right?

Brad

But if I were to.

Brad

I don't know, like the Knight in Monty Python, right? If I were to lose my arms

Brad

and lose my legs, I would still be me, right? So my body, my outsides, my

Brad

Ananda kosha, the bread, the food sheath is.

Brad

It's not who I am, right?

Brad

There's something. There's something that. The I is something internal to that.

Brad

But it's not like my body doesn't matter, right? So my body is like a layer of that.

Brad

And so we can think of the self as sort of like something inside that's more permanent. And we're trying to kind of go from whatever's least permanent to what's most permanent. So we can think of the sheaths in that way of, like, moving towards what's most permanent. Yeah, good. Yeah.

Student

I'm confused about how, like, if brahmana and atman are the same, why does everyone spend their life, like, trying to achieve brahmana if you already are brahmana So,

Brad

yeah, fine. Question.

Brad

I think for the moment, let's punt brahmana a little bit and. Cause you're right.

Brad

I mean, it is atman is brahmana

Brad

That's one of the.

Brad

That's one of the Mahavakyas.

Brad

But first, let's try and get a

Brad

sense of, like, what each one of them means, what. What the atman means, right?

Brad

So before we get to the.

Brad

To brahmana the self here is. I mean, we could. We could take them for the moment

Brad

to just violate what I just said.

Brad

We could take the atman to be the

Brad

mind, right?

Brad

Or, like the self.

Brad

And then the.

Brad

Or what I gave you the other day, purusha and prakriti, right?

Brad

The purusha meaning the spirit and prakriti meaning the matter.

Brad

So for the sake of simplicity, let's

Brad

say that the atman is like the

Brad

purusha and the prakriti is like the matter.

Brad

Right?

Brad

So on the one hand, E equals MC squared. So they're not different than one another,

Brad

but on the other hand, they're definitely

Brad

not the same as one another.

Brad

Right? So rephrase your.

Brad

Or restate your question.

Brad

And it was very well stated.

Student

If atman and brahmana are the same, then why does everyone, like, focus on trying to achieve brahmana so that they can, like, achieve liberation.

Brad

Sure.

Brad

So, I mean, we have to be careful with the same, right? They're not the same. So they're not the same in the sense that, like, matter and energy are not the same.

Brad

Right.

Brad

They're also not totally different. Right.

Brad

So E equals MC squared. So the matter side of the equation and the energy side of the equation

Brad

equal, but they're not the same.

Brad

Right.

Brad

So the whole idea of eating is to convert matter into energy.

Brad

Right. Right now I'm burning calories, which is my body's, you know, ATP and all that kind of stuff.

Brad

Right? Converting matter into energy that can be used. So on the one hand, energy comes. Energy and matter are not fundamentally different, but they are not the same. Yeah.

Brad

So we wouldn't want to say that atman and brahmana are the same in the same way that we wouldn't want to say that matter and energy are the same, but they're also not

Brad

ontologically

Brad

distinct or ontologically different.

Brad

Let me try again. So let's think about

Brad

the. Let's think about a coin, right?

Brad

So if I had a coin, every coin, you know, has a top and a bottom, Right? So heads and tails. Heads is not the same as tails. Right.

Brad

Top is not the same as the bottom.

Brad

But you can't have a coin unless it has a top and a bottom. Right?

Brad

If I were to somehow cut the coin in half this way, it would still have a top and it would still have a bottom.

Brad

It's just now there's two tops and two bottoms, right?

Brad

So top and bottom are relative to one another, but they're still one coin.

Brad

Right.

Brad

So we wouldn't want to say that

Brad

heads is the same as tails. It's not.

Brad

Or that the top is the same as the bottom.

Brad

It's not.

Brad

But they're also not separable from one another.

Brad

Right?

Brad

They're.

Brad

They're ontically distinct, but not ontologically distinct. Meaning there's still one coin, there's still

Brad

a top of the Coin and a bottom of the coin.

Brad

Top is not bottom, bottom is not top, but there's still top and bottom

Brad

of the coin that help a little bit.

Brad

Good. Yeah.

Student

I had a question about. I know yesterday you said like the. The matter and the energy, like where they touch, that could be like considered like conception. But now we're talking about atman is like awareness. But like when you're a baby, for example, unless you have like that super rare case where like that baby remembers everything, like most people like have no awareness until they turn like 4 years old. So like, how does that. If there's no awareness, is that person? ⚠

Brad

So awareness is. I mean, you want to be careful in your example.

Brad

You want to be careful distinguish between awareness and memory. Right? So just because I don't form a

Brad

memory doesn't mean that I'm not aware at the moment. Right?

Brad

So a baby, for example, cries because

Brad

they're aware that they're hungry. They may not even, you know, especially a newborn, they may not even be fully aware.

Brad

You know, they don't make eye contact. They're not aware that there are any other beings than themselves. Right? But they still aware that they're hungry and aware that they're tired. Right.

Brad

They may not.

Brad

I mean, they don't remember those things. But.

Brad

So yeah. Does that help?

Brad

Yeah. So, you know, when Rambachan is talking

Brad

about awareness, like even a tree is

Brad

aware, it's aware in a different way than you and I are aware, but it still is aware.

Brad

Right. There's something about living beings or being

Brad

conscious that makes one aware.

Brad

It's kind of what consciousness is.

Brad

Is being aware.

Brad

Good, great. Yeah.

Student

Is there anything that like differentiates atman between individuals? Because obviously like, people are in different stages of achieving liberation. Or is it just like one consciousness that every individual possesses?

Brad

Yeah.

Brad

So great question. Kind of an advanced question, honestly, like Devin's question. So if I could kind of rephrase the question. So like, if we're saying there's one self, right, only one self, the atman is one, so only one self. Then on the one hand we could say, well, Brad is the self, right?

Brad

And Delaney is the self.

Brad

But I think you're pointing out, right,

Brad

that like, well, Delaney's not Brad and Brad's not Delaney.

Student

Right?

Brad

So then what do we do with those differences and those distinctions?

Brad

Right?

Brad

Because on the one hand we are

Brad

saying, I mean, I'm emphatically saying Brad and Delany are not the same, even though from a Deutsche's perspective, they're also.

Brad

We're also not two.

Brad

Right?

Brad

In the same way that the top

Brad

of the coin and the bottom of

Brad

the coin are not the same, but

Brad

they're also still the same coin. Right?

Brad

Likewise,

Brad

Delaney and Brad are not the same, right?

Brad

This text, not two is not one.

Brad

So we're not one.

Brad

Right?

Brad

But we're also not two.

Brad

So going back

Brad

to the question about yoga, right?

Brad

So for yoga, the two bed sheets,

Brad

right, they're separate and distinct, right? So there's purusha and prakriti and then wherever you have those two coming together,

Brad

like on the one hand we're still

Brad

the same purusha, but distinct from one another in a different way.

Brad

Right?

Brad

The relationship and advaita is more complicated. But I think the super important part of your question is what do we

Brad

do with the differences, right?

Brad

So if, let's put it this way,

Brad

if there is only one self

Brad

and

Brad

Brad is that self and Delaney is

Brad

that self, then why bother making a

Brad

Delany and a Brad? What's the point of difference at all? In fact, that was actually the central focus of my dissertation was on what is the purpose, purpose of difference? What's the role of diversity? What's the function of diversity?

Brad

Why, if there's only one self, why

Brad

isn't there only one self? Why does it appear different, appear many? And I don't want to jump to answer that question, but it's an important question and we will definitely dig into it. But it's a really important question. Good. Other questions.

Student

Yeah, of course, what was the point about talking about how like it's bliss, but then it also started referring to it as bliss.

Brad

I feel like, I feel even as

Brad

I was reading that, I was like, bro, he's getting into like super advanced stuff that's like argued about between different

Brad

Advaitans and like why are you including

Brad

this in a introductory thing?

Brad

But it's there.

Brad

So I think part of what he's

Brad

drawing attention to and he's, you know, he's trying to be really, really faithful to Shankara.

Brad

And what Shankara is writing about is

Brad

that we tend to think of bliss

Brad

as something good, right? And it's not something bad. So it's not wrong.

Brad

But as he's trying to say, we tend to think of bliss almost as the same, as happiness or being happy.

Brad

But happy and sad or happy and unhappy are opposites, right? Whereas bliss doesn't have an opposite. So you can't have an opposite when

Brad

there's not two different things, right?

Brad

So all binaries are already on the

Brad

side of, are not Dual.

Brad

Wait, let me explain it.

Brad

Yeah, kind of a little bit.

Brad

Yeah.

Brad

So bliss.

Brad

Yeah, so bliss.

Brad

It's almost like.

Brad

I mean, I have no experience with heroin but what I understand or what

Brad

I imagine about heroin is that, you

Brad

know, folks that are in that sort of. I don't know, the heroin just kind

Brad

of makes your mind blank. Like you're just kind of like erasing the board or something.

Brad

Like I said, I don't have any desire to experience anything like that.

Brad

But that's my impression, right?

Brad

Is that there's something about just not.

Brad

It's almost like an opposite.

Brad

Like no awareness.

Brad

Right. So that could be seen as a kind of bliss.

Brad

Right. So not aware of this or that.

Brad

But that also doesn't sound like super fun to me.

Brad

Right.

Brad

But yeah, good question. I don't know that I did that well with it. But other questions.

Student

Yeah, like how would the video describe the material things? Like if there's one reality then like is everything we perceive like not.

Brad

No.

Brad

So I mean matter exists, matter is here.

Brad

Matters were, you know, so again that's the brahmana side of things. Right.

Brad

So brahmana is.

Brad

Is exists.

Brad

Right.

Brad

So the. I think.

Brad

And you brought this up the other day too. So like the, the idea of illusion

Brad

is, as Shankara says, it's not that

Brad

you are an illusion or that I

Brad

am illusion or that what we see

Brad

is an illusion, but what is illusory

Brad

is our being different. So the fact of our being is a fact, but the fact of our being atman is asserted by the beta.

Brad

Right. So

Brad

the difference, or the distinction, ontological

Brad

distinction between us is what he's saying is illusory there too. We're kind of getting into advance. You've studied a little bit of this before. Take it. Yeah. So that we're getting a little advanced there. Other questions.

Student

Yes, I know it was talking about like how like the self does not know itself and how we can't be aware of ourselves if we don't have another like self looking on to ourselves.

Brad

Yeah.

Student

And I was just confused on that because, for example, I know, like right now I'm aware I'm sitting in this class.

Brad

Right.

Student

Like things that are happening in my

Student

life, in the world.

Student

So like, I don't know, I was just confused.

Brad

Yeah, yeah, it worked. Okay.

Brad

That's kind of where I was going to go next yajna so let's dive into that question a little bit more. So in order.

Brad

I'm a very logical sort of thinker. Right. This is part of why this appeals to me so much.

Brad

And As I said before, poor Vermemsa is a school of exegesis.

Brad

And her hermeneutics, right? They're concerned with interpreting text. And interpreting texts comes down to a

Brad

lot of grammar, right? So grammar is a super important part of brahma Mamsa.

Brad

And grammar is also likely a super. Likewise, a super important part of vedanta.

Brad

So, grammatically, right? Grammatically, we've got

1:07:03

Closing Remarks and Office Hours Announcement

Brad

knower, right? Which is a subject.

Brad

So in order to know anything, in order to be a knower, I have to know something, right? I can't know nothing if I know nothing, I'm not a knower. So to know. To be a knower is to know something, right? Whatever I know doesn't so much matter, right? It's just in order to be a

Brad

knower, there has to be a distinction.

Brad

I use that word carefully.

Brad

A distinction between the knower and whatever thing I know, right? Which we call known.

Brad

grammatically, right? That's the nominative or the subject, and this is the accusative, right? Or the object.

Brad

So take subject and object. Really?

Brad

Really, in grammatical terms, right?

Brad

So I, as a knower, am the subject.

Brad

I'm the one that knows, and I

Brad

can't know anything unless there is something to be known, or whatever I know is known. So hence we can see, I hope,

Brad

that you can't have one without the other, right?

Brad

Along those same lines, as you can't

Brad

have a coin that doesn't have both

Brad

the top and a bottom. You can't have one without the other. There can be no top without a bottom.

Brad

There cannot be an inside without an outside. There can't be an up without a down, right?

Brad

So logically, we'd say that they're mutually constitutive.

Brad

Correlates. Correlates, meaning they relate to one another.

Brad

And mutually constitutive mean they define one another.

Brad

You can't have one without the other, right?

Student

Like.

Brad

Like a magnet, right? You can't have a magnet unless there's a north pole and a south pole. You can cut the magnet in half,

Brad

but then it still gets a north pole and a south pole, right?

Brad

Or a positive and a negative.

Brad

Likewise with the coin.

Brad

You can't have a top without a bottom. Likewise with knower. There can't be a knower unless there's something known. And whatever is known is only known as an object of the knower, right? So what's the big deal with this? On the one hand, we could say

Brad

I believe that Brian is a knower, right? And I know I'm A knower, right?

Brad

So.

Brad

But when I know Brian, I can only know Brian as an object of my knowing, right? I can never know Brian as a knower.

Brad

Do you follow that?

Brad

I can only know Brian as something known.

Brad

So it doesn't matter how much I

Brad

try, I can't experience Brian as a knower because if I could experience Brian as a knower, I would be Brian, right?

Brad

Does that make sense? So you can't know me as anything other than an object of your knowledge

Brad

because you are the knower and whatever you know is something known and therefore whatever you know is not a knower because a knower grammatically can't be known logically. Grammatically, right?

Brad

What was your question again, Samuel?

Brad

Did I answer

Student

was just like. Like if the self cannot be known unless we have like another self looking onto ourselves.

Brad

Yeah. So on the one hand I can

Brad

only know myself as a knower, right?

Brad

And I can only know you as known as an object.

Brad

So remember I said that the pramanas, right? The Pramanas, each one of them reveals something different, right? Pratyaksha reveals something that can't be known

Brad

from any other way of knowledge, right? You can't know what ice karma is

Brad

unless you taste ice karma right?

Brad

Just not if you read about it

Brad

in a book or something. That's not the same as experiencing it directly, right?

Brad

So Pratyaksha gives us knowledge that we can't know by any other means. Likewise with scripture, right?

Brad

What makes scripture authoritative, what makes it

Brad

a brahmana is it tells us something

Brad

that we can't know by any other means of knowledge, right?

Brad

So on the one hand I'm saying

Brad

so I can experience you as an object of knowing without Scripture, I don't need that at all.

Brad

Right?

Brad

But what scripture reveals, at least according

Brad

to Shankara, as I've already said, there's

Brad

lots of different views, right?

Brad

I'm not saying his view is the

Brad

right view, but in Shankara view what

Brad

Scripture tells us that cannot possibly be

Brad

known by any other means is that there is only one self, right?

Brad

And that the self of Samuela is

Brad

the one and only self, right?

Brad

So that the self of Samuela and

Brad

the self of Brad is the one self. But again, that doesn't mean that Samuela and Brad are the same any more than it means matter and energy are the same or the top and bottom are the same.

Brad

It just means what? On the one hand it means that

Brad

there can't be one without the other. They're mutually consistent, right? Or yeah.

Brad

Good.

Brad

So we Only have three minutes left. Let me. This might help, too. So he has this passage in there about relationships, right?

Brad

Web of relationships.

Brad

And so let's say

Brad

who I am,

Brad

let's say this is me, right? I.

Brad

But who I am is always going to be.

Brad

I've never not been in the world, right?

Brad

Ever since I was purana been in the world.

Brad

And who I am, I've always understood

Brad

in relationship with others, right? And in fact, I am named according

Brad

to my differing relationships with others, right?

Brad

Most people call me Brad, and so Brad kind of points back to I, right?

Brad

But not everybody calls me Brad.

Brad

Three people in particular call me dad.

Brad

And so dad is another name that still refers to me, but it's, as

Brad

you can see, super relational, right?

Brad

So dad names a relation. Now, logically, dad and son are usually. They're different.

Brad

They're opposites, right?

Brad

But I am dad with respect to these relationships, and I'm Son with respect

Brad

to other relationships, right?

Brad

So each one of these names the same self, but names the self in

Brad

terms of its finite relationships with others, right?

Brad

Two people call me lbj, which, you might remember, means Little Baby Jesus. My sisters call me Little Baby Jesus.

Brad

They don't mean it as a compliment, even though it sounds nice, right? My mom calls me Booper.

Brad

So, like, differing people call me differing things, right? All of these terms name the same self, but all of those selves. I mean, dad is a very different

Brad

role to play than son, which is

Brad

very different than brother or sibling or friend or something like that. Kind of got it. Right. Good. Cool.

Brad

Have a great weekend. I look forward to your first podcast. And I have office hours right now,

Brad

and have fun with it.