Full Class Transcript

Opening Meditation & Chant

Brad: Let's take a moment to put away screens and be fully present.

Brad: Brahmaarpanam Brahma havir Brahmaagnau Brahmanaa hutam Brahmaiva tena gantavyam Brahma karma samaadhinaa

Brad: Let's take one breath together. Go ahead and breathe in.

Brad: And let's let that out.

Syllabus Correction & Logistics

Brad: So, there's a little mistake in the syllabus. Apologies. For some reason, I assigned chapters four and five for today. Should have been, really should have been three and four or at least three, four and five. So we're definitely going to spend some time on chapter three. And but also get to four and five.

Brad: Okay. So our leaders today are George, Jack, Jose, Lena, Luke, Molly, Dix, Reagan and Jaylene.

Student 1: Brad. Ellen and I swapped.

Brad: Ellen, you swapped.

Brad: Good. Yeah, yeah. No problem. That's why I, that's why I asked. Clarify.

Brad: Okay.

Brad: Let's, let's comport ourselves in a manner befitting Boston College students, please.

Pedagogical Discussion: Studying Sacred Texts

Brad: So part of why we're sitting on the floor today, I've done I've published a bit, a few articles and book chapters and things, about pedagogy and the importance, of the pedagogical environment and the particularly when we're reading sacred scriptures. So, the way that a person, who's devoted to a tradition, the way they engage sacred scriptures is typically different than the way that they engage other kinds of texts. So if you're studying fluid dynamics, you know, you probably approach those texts, just pick something at random. You probably approach those texts differently than you approach, you know, scriptures, for example. And maybe some of you even feel differently reading Gospel of John versus, the, Bhagavad Gita, which would be another example of that, right? So, I do feel like it's important when we're reading sacred scriptures, especially a scripture that's not our own, to do our best, to try and approach it in a manner that is consistent with, you know, how devotees within the tradition would approach it, right? Not exactly the same way, but nevertheless with the same sort of reverence and attitude, and respect that, that someone would approach it, you know, within the tradition.

Brad: To that end, if we were studying this at, you know, Christ College or Dharmaram or, or really anywhere, in India, then, we would approach it like this, right? Sitting on the floor, sitting, in a, in a manner that, you know, sitting, sitting like this, right? And so, I feel like it gives us a different way of interacting with one another, different way of interacting with the text, and a different level of humility and that sort of thing too. So, so yeah, so I, that's part of, part of why I wanted to approach it this way.

Brad: So, yeah. Yeah.

Student 2: Would you like for us to sit on the floor?

Brad: I, you know, it's up to you, but yeah.

Brad: So, what I'd like to do is read through the...

Brad: Maybe, yeah. Didn't affect the previous class in this way though.

Brad: Let's come to order, please. So I'd like to, especially since I didn't assign chapter three, which I just really don't know how I, how I did that. But since I didn't assign it, let's read it together. So we'll just go around the room, and read each verse. The the verse that I chanted was from chapter four.

Brad: So we'll get there.

Brad: Let's just take, you know what? Let's take another moment of silence and just kind of restart, yeah?

Introduction to Chapter 3: Karma Yoga

Brad: So, there's a lot of advantages of reading Barbara Stoler Miller's translation. The biggest advantage, as I mentioned before, is that she translates every word, right? Into English. I also think this is certainly the biggest disadvantage of the text, as I've mentioned before.

Brad: So, I want to, you know, I want to read the text in English as it, as it is. But I also want to draw your attention to some of the Sanskrit that's, that's behind the language that she uses. If any of you have purchased, this, this text, she does, in the back, there's, a dictionary, basically. It's basically sort of like a reverse glossery where she takes the words that she's used to translate the words and then gives you the the Sanskrit and that sort of thing.

Brad: But I want to begin by drawing attention to the title of this third, this third teaching. So the titles were added later. They're not original to the text, but they were added, very soon after the text. So they're almost as ancient as the text itself. And the titles have certainly been become, you know, part of the canon itself. So the the titles are, worth giving some attention to, for sure. And the title of this chapter, chapter three, I think just is very, very different reading it in English versus in Sanskrit. Particularly because, most American students know the Sanskrit words that are being translated here, and think about them in very different ways. So I want us to really try and, deconstruct, that may be too technical of a term. But I wanted you to try and, you know, let go of your preconceived notions, particularly in American culture of, what the words karma and yoga mean. So the title of this chapter is Barbara Stoller Miller translates it is the discipline of action. But the the words in Sanskrit are karma and yoga. So the it's Karma yoga is actually the the title. It's one, it's a compound word, so karma and yoga. So, she's translating and she can she consistently, very much to her credit. She consistently translates the words always in the same way, right? So she always translates the word karma as action. And, if you read chapter three, which I know wasn't, wasn't properly assigned. Then you see this this word comes up like in every verse. It's it's all about, karma. And yoga, she consistently translates as discipline.

Brad: But I want you to try and let go of those, you know, your preconceived notions of, of karma and yoga. And hopefully by the end, we can see how these, how these American understandings have been, you know, some some of the truth, I guess, behind it.

Brad: So that's one thing. The other thing I want to begin, by pointing out for most all of the chapters, beginning with chapter three through the end, I've I think I've mentioned this before, but the pattern is, Arjuna asks a question and then Krishna answers the question, right? So usually you have a question at the beginning. And, it's, an old, you know, an old adage in, in Indian theology, Indian philosophy that, that the quality of a teaching always depends on the questions, the quality of the questions asked by the student. And so, Arjuna is exceptionally good at asking clear, straightforward questions, right? He's not the coldest beer in the fridge, you could say, right? But he's, but he's really, really, really good at asking just straightforward, just, bro, give it like you're trying, you're confusing me, right? Just answer me this question. So let's, let's begin by, taking, you know, taking a couple minutes to see what his question is, right? Would anybody be volunteer? Yeah, Addison, just to read, we'll go, yeah, read first, yeah, we'll go in circle.

Reading of Bhagavad Gītā Chapter 3 (Verses 1-19)

Student 3: Arjuna, if you think understanding is more powerful than action, why Krishna, do you urge me to do this horrific act?

Student 4: You confuse my understanding with a maze of words. Speak one certain truth so I may achieve what is good.

Brad: Okay, good. So let's pause there. And so, we've I taught earlier this semester the Trimarga, the three, the three paths to liberation. Anybody remember those three paths of liberation? Three paths to liberation?

Student 5: Devotion.

Brad: Devotion? Yeah, devotion to God. So Bhakti Marga, the path of devotion. Yeah, that's one of them.

Student 6: Knowledge?

Brad: Path of knowledge, Jnana Marga, the path of knowledge or wisdom, and...

Student 7: Karma.

Brad: Karma. Yeah, so Karma Marga, path of action, Jnana Marga, the path of knowledge or wisdom, and Bhakti Marga, the path of devotion, meaning devotion to God, right? And so the Gita teaches all three of these. And here, here at least as Arjuna understands it, he's saying, you think that understanding, the word that's being translated there is Jnana. So the path of, path of knowledge, path of understanding. You're saying that that path is better than the path of action, right? So, if you think that Jnana Marga, the path of knowledge is more powerful or better in some way than the path of action, then why are you telling me to take this action here, right? Which is bad. And then he says, you're confusing me, right? With a maze of words. Speak one certain truth, just lay it out for me, right? So that I can achieve what's good. So pretty good straightforward question, right? Like I said, Arjuna is really good at asking those straightforward questions. Should we continue? Vanya?

Student 8: Lord Krishna, earlier I taught the twofold basis of good in this world. For philosophers, disciplined knowledge, for men of discipline, action.

Student 9: A man cannot escape the force of action by abstaining from action. He does not attain success just by renunciation.

Student 10: No one exists for even an instant without performing action. However unwilling, every being is forced to act by the qualities of nature.

Student 11: When his senses are controlled, but he keeps recalling sense objects with his mind, he is a self-deluded hypocrite.

Student 12: When he controls his senses with his mind and engages in the discipline of action with his faculties of action, detachment excels him apart.

Student 13: Perform necessary action. It is more powerful than lacking action. Without action, you even fail to sustain your own body.

Student 14: Action imprisons the world unless it is done as sacrifice. Free from attachment, Arjuna, perform action as sacrifice.

Student 15: When creating living beings and sacrifice, Prajapati, the primordial creator said, "By sacrifice will you procreate. Let it be your wish granting cow."

Student 16: Foster the gods with this, and may they foster you. By fostering one another, you will achieve the highest good.

Student 17: Enriched by sacrifice, the gods will give you the delights you desire. He is a thief who enjoys their gifts without giving in return.

Student 18: Good men eating the remains of sacrifice are freed from any guilt. But evil men who cook for themselves eat the food of sin.

Student 19: Creatures depend on food, food comes from rain, rain comes from sacrifice, and sacrifice comes from action.

Student 20: Action comes from the spirit of prayer, whose source is Om, sound of the imperishable. So the pervading infinite spirit is ever present in rights of sacrifice.

Student 21: He who fails to keep turning the wheel here set in motion lives senselessly in sin, addicted to the senses, Arjuna.

Student 22: But when a man finds delight within himself and feels inner joy and pure contentment in himself, there is nothing more to be done.

Student 23: He has no stake here in deeds done or undone, nor does his purpose depend on other creatures.

Student 24: Always perform with detachment any action you must do. Performing action with detachment, one achieves supreme good.

Discussion of Verses 1-19 (Karma, Sacrifice, Detachment)

Brad: Okay, so let's pause here and then we'll pick up, with Andrik in verse 20 in a minute. So a number of things to, remind you about and point out. One is that, prior to the Gita, Karma always meant one specific thing, right? I mean, the word means action, but specifically, way more specifically, it meant performance of the Vedic rituals, right? So the Vedic the Karma Kanda, the is the, sorry, the, Brahmana, which is the second part of the Veda, which describes the, Vedic rituals to be performed. It's called the Karma Kanda. And so, the Mimamsakas, who we've studied a number of times before, right? They're concerned with interpreting those texts clearly and performing the rituals as prescribed in the, in the Brahmana, right? So, Karma prior to the Gita always, and especially prior to this chapter, these verses that we just read, always exclusively meant performance of the Vedic rituals, right? So performance of the Yagnas, which are sacrifices. They're, usually referred to as sacrifices. Yagna means sacrifice. And so here, Krishna is, is giving us a bit of a reinterpretation of what Karma means, right? I mean, maybe even a radical reinterpretation. So how is he, how is he taking action? How in what way is he taught, is he, broadening the definition, I guess you could say?

Student 5: I feel like he's saying that like in order to act properly, you have to be disciplined in the way that it's like you have to be knowledgeable about what you're doing because he said like detachment, when you when you commit to action with like detachment from like any sort of reward, that's when you're doing it to like the fullest extent and to the extent that he's talking about. So I feel like it's a certain action that like has to do with like the greater good in the sense that you're not doing it for like a reward.

Brad: Yeah, great. So many great points in there. Yeah, George?

Student 8: Yeah, to add on to that, it says like action imprisons the world unless it is done as a sacrifice. So it it's kind of like the idea of it has to be selfless for it to mean anything and it can't be done as like, I guess like a means to an end, it's just like as an end, like you're just doing it to do it. And just to be like a selfless person.

Brad: Yeah, good. So we got a great, a lot of great, really important words here, right? So selflessness, and discipline and performing the sacrifice in this, performing maybe every action in that sort of way. Yeah, John?

Student 10: Also kind of saying that like action happens no matter what. He says Yeah. However unwilling, every being is forced to act by the qualities of nature.

Brad: Yeah. So, I mean, really, really broadening, right? So I mean I said, I said action, karma always refers to the Vedic rituals. And now he's saying, I mean, you can't even exist without karma, right? Verse 8, perform necessary karma. It's more powerful than akarma or inaction. Without karma, you even fail to sustain your own body, right? So even, even breathing is an action, eating is an action, any kind of thing is an action.

Student 15: Well to that point where it says, wait, every being is forced to act by the qualities of nature. Does he mean or do they mean like in a sense of like, for example, like eating or something like that? Like actions as though like you have to eat, but the result being being nourished is not coming from the ego, but rather something that you have to do?

Brad: Right. So, I mean, eating, eating is right there, right? Verse 13.

Student 15: by the force of nature, like you're not doing it from ego, but really because you genuinely need to.

Brad: I mean, you can't survive without eating, right? And so when you're eating, that's an action. And not only is it a general action, but you're destroying this unique manifestation of Brahman and turning it into Jaylene, right? So there's a, there's a destructive aspect to or creation and, you know, destruction and a recreation there. So there's a, there's an element of sacrifice. Yeah, great.

Student 14: Then too in that line 14 where it says creatures depend on food, food comes from rain, rain comes from sacrifice, sacrifice comes from action. It connects the Brahman to the food. And it moves that cycle back to like primordial rain, which I think is interesting. Yeah. But then it's also, I think it's interesting because it's not just keeping to yourself, it's keeping to all creatures. So like your action will create rain. And the rain is going to affect not just yourself, but all creatures. And all creatures then need to be in the same kind of, I suppose, mind frame, to to do sacrifice through action so that everyone's okay, not just yourself. I find that interesting. It's expanded. It's not just as an individual action, but as a whole.

Brad: So simultaneously expanding action to mean all actions, and also, expanding the notion of the self to include all selves. Yeah, good. Yeah, Reagan.

Student 21: Yeah, I think that actually goes along with what I was going to point out. But also I guess too like, I feel like like I feel like we never think of like rain as as it was something like from our own actions, but like here we can see how like basically like everything in life like depends on each other. like I guess back to like the like nature point like you were talking like rain which like we I feel like nowadays feel like we don't have like any control over like they show how like sacrifice creates like like more like naturalistic changes on like a more like universal level like that what I was going to say.

Brad: Yeah, Warren (Student 14)? Great.

Brad: Good. Yeah, I think we got the the gist for now at least. One other thing I want to point out is this, this section from verse 10 through 12, there's a section in quotes. So also, the word Prajapati. So when living when living beings and sorry, when creating living beings and sacrifice, Prajapati, the primordial creator said, so the Prajapati that's being referenced here is going back to the very first texts that I assigned at the beginning of the semester. Or at least the very first Hindu text that we read. Namely the the Purusha Sukta, Rigveda 1090. So in the beginning was that one person, that person was called Prajapati. Prajapati means Pati means father and Praja means creatures. So the father of all creatures. So the father of all creatures was the only thing that existed in the universe, and then it sacrificed itself, right? So by by it divided itself or in the lecture that day, I used the piece of paper about unfolding, right? So it it ceases to become, well, it doesn't entirely cease to become one, but it becomes many, right? So this unfolding, this one unfolds to become the many. So that's a sacrifice in some sense of its unity. And that father of, and then the father of all beings is the primordial creator. And then this quote that's given there is more ancient than the than the text itself that we have in front of us, right? So it's quoting something much older. Yeah, Mr. Kell?

Student 26: Would you call that a bhava, like the like the yogurt milk process kind of thing or no? Is that different?

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so, the way that Vedantins would usually refer to it Satkaryavada, which is another, it's the other side of the coin on Abhava. So, yeah, great. So Abhava, you remember the the example that was given there was the milk turns into the curd, right? So the milk no longer exists, at least as milk. And it's only at that point that it becomes the cause of the curd, right? So there's a transformation of one into the other. So the the cause exists in the effect as the effect. And it only exists as cause then in sort of a historical way, right? So likewise, we could say Prajapati only exists now as Miguel and Mary and Luka, right? So, yeah, excellent. Great, great connection.

Brad: Good. Questions about those? Any other verse, any other Should we pick up then? Where were we? Andrik, I think, yeah, verse 20. This by the way, verses 20 through 25, were were some of Gandhi's favorite verses from the Gita, quoted very often.

Reading of Bhagavad Gītā Chapter 3 (Verses 20-43)

Student 49: Janaka and other ancient kings attained perfection by action alone. Seeing the way to preserve the world, you should act.

Student 1: Whatever a leader does, the ordinary people also do. He sets the standard for the world to follow.

Student 3: In the three worlds, there is nothing I must do, nothing unattained to be attained, yet I engage in action.

Student 4: What if I did not engage relentlessly in action? Men retrace my path at every turn, Arjuna.

Student 5: These worlds would collapse if I did not perform action. I would create disorder in society, living beings would be destroyed.

Student 6: As the ignorant act with attachment to actions, Arjuna, so wise men should act with detachment to preserve the world.

Student 7: No wise man disturbs understanding of ignorant men attached to action. He should inspire them performing all actions with detachment.

Student 8: Actions are all affected by the qualities of nature, but deluded by individuality, the self thinks I am the actor.

Student 9: When he can discriminate the actions of nature's qualities and think the qualities depend on other qualities, he is detached.

Student 10: Those deluded by the qualities of nature are attached to their actions. A man who knows this should not upset these dull men of partial knowledge.

Student 11: Surrender all actions to me and fix your reason on your inner self. Without hope or possessiveness, your fever subdued, fight the battle.

Student 12: Men who always follow my thought, trusting it without finding fault are freed even by their actions.

Student 13: But those who find fault and fail to follow my thought, know that they are lost fools, deluded by every bit of knowledge.

Student 14: Even a man of knowledge behaves in accord with his own nature. Creatures all conform to nature. What can one do to restrain them?

Student 15: Attraction and hatred are poised in the object of every sense experience. A man must not a man must not fall prey to those two brigands lurking on his path.

Student 16: Your own duty, done imperfectly, is better than another man's done well. It is better to die in one's own duty, another man's duty is perilous.

Student 17: Arjuna, Krishna, what makes a person commit evil against his own will as if compelled by force?

Student 18: It is desire and anger arising from nature's quality of passion. Know it here is the enemy, voracious and very evil.

Student 19: As fire is obscured by smoke and a mirror by dirt, as an embryo is veiled by its caul, so is knowledge obscured by this.

Student 20: Knowledge is obscured, obscured by the wise man's eternal enemy, which takes form as desire, an insatiable fire, Arjuna.

Student 21: The senses, the mind, and understanding are said to harbor desire. Through these, desire obscures knowledge and confounds the embodied self.

Student 22: Therefore, first restrain your senses, Arjuna, then kill this evil that ruins knowledge and judgment.

Student 23: Men say that the senses are superior to their objects, the mind superior to the senses, understanding superior to the mind, higher than understanding is the self.

Student 24: Knowing the self beyond understanding, sustain the self with the self. Great warrior, kill the enemy menacing you in the form of desire.

Discussion of Verses 20-43 (Duty, Desire, Knowledge, Lokasaṅgraha, Kaṭha Upaniṣad)

Brad: Okay, good. Thank you. Those last two verses or at least 42 and the first half of 43, those are direct quotations from the Katha Upanishad, which we did not read this semester, but I mentioned a couple of weeks ago or last week, I think, that the Katha Upanishad describes the human person it gives this allegory of a chariot. And so describes the human person like a chariot, likens the human person to a chariot with five horses. Five horses representing the five senses, right? And so in the same way that like if you if you don't know how to control a chariot, right? If you're then you get in a chariot and it just goes wherever the horses want to go, right? And so those five senses, they just lead you wherever they want to go, right? You see something that looks good, you go that way. You smell something that smells good, you go that way, right? So that sort of thing. So, the opposite of discipline, right? So the senses draw us towards objects in the world. Then the the Katha Upanishad describes the the objects are the things that we're attracted to or repulsed by. The senses are what attracts us to them or repulses us by them. The mind is is described as the reins, right? So the reins that link the horses to the charioteer. So the mind is the reins. And so if you're control of your mind, then you're control of your senses. That doesn't mean that you don't smell the cookies that are there, right? But it means that you're able to not obsess over them or think about them, right? And that kind of stuff and then control your body, which is the chariot itself. And then also as I mentioned in the Katha Upanishad, there's two people in the chariot, not one, right? And so one represents your individual self, right? Like Jaden. But then the other self is that is the Atman, the self of all beings, right? And so that same Atman, that's in Jaden's chariot is in Stella's chariot and in Ella's chariot, etc, right? So the the point being to listen to that self that's there. So, this is the passage that's being quoted here. Men say that the senses are superior, the senses, the horses in that case, are superior to the objects that they're drawn to, because they're sentient, right? The mind is superior to the senses because they can control them. And then superior to the mind, understanding, Jnana, you know, wisdom is superior to the mind. And then beyond all of that is the self, the the self of all beings.

Brad: So, let's turn back to, actually, I want to open up to you. So yeah, any of the verses that we read, here. Yeah, Lena?

Student 17: I just wanted to kind of, it kind of reminded me in chapter or in the fifth teaching about how the soul is unaffected by like the body and mind. So in this case that you're talking about in the third teaching with the chariot, like connecting the body and like the senses, where does the soul fit into that? Like is that separate from the two and like yourself or like is that also relating to the like actions you pursue?

Brad: Yeah, good question. So there's there's two words in Sanskrit that are usually translated as soul. We could look at the specific verse that you're asking about. But the the two candidates would be Atman, the self of all beings, which is often translated as soul. So in that case, right, that's that one makes sense. The other one would be the Jiva. So Jiva is something, it's just a more nuanced version of the ego. So ego is the is ego means I, right? Or in Sanskrit, Aham. So like, you remember in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad that we read, in the beginning was that one person, that one person was alone, the person was scared, then they were lonely. And then they said Aham, right? And they says, and the same way that we all say Aham or I, that's always pointing to the myself, right? So that could, that could also be the other candidate for Jiva. So it could be, on the one hand it could be the self, the Atman of all beings. On the other hand it could be the self that that you call Lena or the self that we call Lena and you call I, right? So, yeah, so that, either one of those, I think. Yeah.

Student 8: I just have a question. In verse 22, it says, in the three worlds, there is nothing I must do. Yeah. He's, is Krishna talking about like the the Trimarga that we were just talking about or like what are the three worlds he's referring to?

Brad: Right. No, not the three margas. So the three worlds, it could be, it could be understood in a number of different ways. One is sort of like mind and body and spirit. Another could be heaven and the present world and, and hell. It could also be the realm of the ancestors. It doesn't really matter. What really matters here is that Krishna is beyond all of them, right? So Krishna doesn't isn't affected by, he doesn't have any, I mean, God doesn't doesn't need to do anything, right? There's nothing that need that God needs to do. So in the three worlds, there's nothing that I must do, right? Nothing unattained to be attained, right? So I don't need to do anything at all. But the point being, I still act, right? So even though there's nothing I need to do, I still act. And why does he act? Because he's a role model, right? So when you're a leader in society, people look to you as an exemplar, right? And so if you're an exemplar, then people that, right? There's a number of different ways to make ethical action. One is by understanding what the right action to do is. Another action, another way to do it is by doing what you're told, hopefully you're being told the right thing by the right people, right? So following instructions as long hoping those instructions are good. Then the third way is by following the examples of good people, right? And so Krishna is basically saying, right? Vishnu took the form, a human form in order to be an exemplar, in order to set an example. And in order to set an example, you have to act because you can't sit idly by and allow injustice, you know, and oppression to occur.

Brad: Great. Okay, lot of hands. Lot of hands. Molly and then Addison and yeah.

Student 7: Does that relate to how in like teaching four it talks about how action is supposed to be the afterthought, well, action is the afterthought of thought?

Brad: Let's look at the verse. Yeah.

Brad: Yeah, we can come back. Yeah, Addison?

Student 3: I was just going to talk about real quick in like, I guess verse 24, 25 in chapter three. When he's talking about ignorance, like an ignorant act with like attachment and he was talking about attachment and you have to separate your attachment from your actions. Right. I was kind of confused like how that makes actions bad if that makes sense, right? Cuz at least like Arjuna is like asking like he's he has attachment to the other side of the people he's about to fight, right? Right. So and he's trying and Krishna is just saying detach yourself from all that. How does that make you like have better judgment in your actions if that makes sense, right? I feel like you would want to consider everything and the other people not Right.

Brad: Well, he wants you to consider everything, for sure. Yeah, he's he's definitely saying you should consider everything, but sometimes you can you should consider everything and then sometimes you have to do something that you don't want to do, right? So, in the real world, sometimes we have to do, sometimes the right thing is something that we don't want to do, right? In this case because because of the his attachment to the people on the other side. So he's saying, once you know the right thing to do, then do it, right? That's your job is to do the right thing. Don't be attached to the outcome, don't be attached to how it's going to affect you. Be attached to justice, goodness, righteousness, those sort of things, right? So don't be concerned about those, those should be your your goals. Yeah. Yeah, Luke?

Student 6: So three and five both say like the idea of acting without like caring about the outcome. Yeah. Can you really act without caring about what the outcome is? Cuz you just said like you're trying to do it in the ideas of like righteousness, ideas like that. Right. Isn't that still like sort of an outcome?

Brad: Absolutely, for sure. Absolutely. Yes, great question. And so, this is part of why, Gandhi liked these particular verses 20 and 25 so much because it is, it is, on the one hand it's saying, don't be attached to the results of the action. But on the other hand, like you're saying, you've got to be motivated by something, right? There's something that's guiding this decision to take this action over this other action, right? That's your question. And so, the answer that's being given here, I mean the answer that we've studied before is Leela. So whatever's going to lead to the, I don't know that seems like John Stewart Mill sort of thing, right? So whatever's going to be the greatest happiness or joy for the most people. But here the answer that's given, in verse 20 and 25, is, well the way she translates it is preserve the world, right? Seeing the way to preserve the world, you should act. And then in verse 25, wise men should act with detachment to preserve the world. So that's the goal there. The word in Sanskrit is Lokasangraha. So Loka means world, but it it really kind of means the people in the world. So the world in sense of like the people in the world, you know what I mean? So the people collectively in the world. And Sangraha, we know because that's one of our, learning objectives, right? Sang meaning together and Graha meaning grasp. So grasping together, right? So to hold the world together. I always think of, do you know, I can't do it, but like the here's the church and here's the steeple and then open the door. You know that thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't. There you go. And then here's the church, here's the steeple, open up and see all the people. Okay, I did it. All right, word. So I don't know, that I think of this, this is like literally what Lokasangraha means, like it's all the people Sangraha, right? grasped together, brought together, held together, right? So your concern is for all of the people. And so that's the goal is to preserve all the people, to help all the people for the benefit of of the people all together. So it's not, as you're pointing out, right? It's not devoid of any goal. So it's got to be something that's motivating it. And so that's, that's that's what's being said here.

Student 6: So is it like trying to not removing emotion from making choices and you're going, well what's the great sort of what's the greater good? Kind of like that John Stewart Mill utilitarianism. You're trying to help the most people, but you want to act without letting your own emotions and judgments cloud the situation.

Brad: I think that's exactly what he's saying. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Reagan?

Student 21: Yeah, I think also in in in in chapter four, verse 20 says, says it says abandoning attachment to fruits and action, always content, independent, he does nothing at all even when he is is is involved in action. I think that kind of goes along with this because kind of it's like you're kind of just being very content and it like I makes you like this like like this like detachment is more so to kind of like protect you in a way because like because like even though if you're doing like like something that's like hard to do or like basically isn't easy like by like by you being not attached to what's actually happening or like or like here it says like the the the fruits of the action like you're more content and like level headed to like to like do like what you what you have to do rather than like what you want to do.

Brad: Exactly, right. Taking the emotion out of the equation and just being rational and logical without attachment to this person or that person or that I'm related to this person or that person, but instead just doing the right thing because it's the right thing and it's going to lead to justice and Lokasangraha and everything. So many hands. Yeah, Luka.

Student 6: Yeah, so going back to the action and inaction point you made earlier. So in lines 40 through wait, yeah, at the end where it says, therefore first restrain your senses Arjuna, then kill this evil that ruins knowledge and judgment. And at the end says, kill the enemy medicine you in the form of desire. So is it essentially that Krishna is making like a clear distinction between so like objective action, like neutrality versus like the desire of Arjuna's action like the distinction between taking action that is objective and neutral versus like an action there's both actions but one is objective neutral versus one that's desired it's out of desire and kind of like a want almost, right?

Brad: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. That wasn't a question, right? That was Yeah. That was great. That was good. Yeah, good summary. Yeah. Folks that haven't talked Avery, yeah?

Student 43: Going off about that desire point, I feel like one thing that we see in the fourth teaching a lot, like or what I've noticed is what Krishna was saying like in the absence, like when you get rid of desire, that's when you're acting through knowledge or like when you're complete full of knowledge. So I just feel like it's interesting to talk about that like in the absence of desire and like in the absence of attachment that like the good ways that you were acting like through knowledge and like in that action. Cuz like I feel like it's interesting how like Krishna like equates like desire or attachment as like a bad thing.

Brad: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so he's I mean he's advocating a certain kind of stoicism, right? Yeah, I mean that Okay, I think you'd be right to say it it's it's portrayed in a negative light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, try.

Student 15: Now I'm kind of confused cuz like she brought up the point that when you're acting without desire, then you're acting with knowledge. But I feel like Krishna was kind of saying like you're supposed to sacrifice knowledge cuz knowledge has the qualities of like ignorance or ego. So now I'm confused like is Krishna trying to say you should act without knowledge, like sacrifice knowledge or act with knowledge?

Brad: Where do you see him saying sacrifice knowledge?

Student 15: Cuz like it doesn't explicitly say like sacrifice knowledge, but

Student 15: Kill this evil that ruins knowledge.

Brad: Yeah, I think the the evil that ruins knowledge and judgment is here, you know, ego egocentric attachment, like attachment, personal, emotional attachment, right? So, don't let your emotional attachment ruin your knowledge and judgment.

Student 15: But then it says even a man of knowledge behaves in accord with his own nature and kill the evil. So that's why I'm saying like, what do you mean by kill this knowledge? Like I'm assuming, yeah, the knowledge of ego and ignorance, whatever. But it's kind of contradictory if you're acting since you're acting without desire, you're acting with knowledge, but now he's saying kill this knowledge.

Brad: I don't think he's saying kill this knowledge. I think he's saying kill this kill the attachment, kill the emotional attachment. Okay, that's fine. that that destroys knowledge. Yeah. Yeah.

Student 27: I guess going off this whole desire point. Arjuna makes a good point saying like, you know, I can try and like get rid of all this, you know, I can try and act logically and I'll still commit evil. You know, against his own will. I think that brings up a good point that like maybe getting rid of I don't know how Krishna expects people to entirely get rid of desire considering that the reason why Arjuna would be acting and listening to Krishna in the first place is the desire to be good, the desire to do all that. I don't you think that Krishna means like all desire of all kinds or like bad desire or good desire? Like and then how do you define what's bad versus good desire? Like I guess I'm trying to square that away.

Brad: Yeah, I I don't have a answer to that other than to say that's a good question and keep asking it. Yeah, you have something on that?

Student 36: Yeah, I was going to ask cuz we said leaving emotional behind and being like do the right thing. But I I have a question like what have like how do you know what the right thing is in every situation and then what would he think of someone who thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's actually not doing the right thing. So does that make you a worse person in his mind?

Brad: Right. So also really good questions. I do think questions that are addressed as we will go on. Yeah, so I think I think those are definitely the right questions to ask. Yeah, we'll get Jack in here and Yeah.

Student 8: I was going to say something very similar to the desire point just that I think I don't think you can say that Krishna is saying that like should you were saying that all desire is bad. I think it's the type of desire that you have, like if it's personal or egotistical, then it's bad. Yeah. And then I also think like having how do you know like what your action you should take? There's a lot of talk about like duty in it and I like that if you know and figure out what your duty is, even if you do that like badly, that's better than doing someone else's. So I think like that's what Krishna is saying is the way that you have to follow.

Brad: Very good, very good, very on point. and that's let's look at that verse. Where is that? 35? 35. Yeah, so the like I said, Stoler Miller always translates everything consistently. And so anytime you see the word duty, that always means duty. Uh it always means Dharma or it's always translating Dharma. And so, your own duty, the phrase there is Swa Dharma. So, and this is this is on Ella's point, but Jack's own duty may be different than Camilla's own duty, right? So that's that's an important point. So it's important for Jack to figure out what Jack's own duty is, and then perform that. Molly?

Student 7: Is action in this? Is it like only physical action or is it like a mental desire to act?

Brad: Ooh, good question. I really want to say it's always physical action, but I'm not confident on that. So, yeah. Yeah. Good question. Uh, Ella?

Student 36: I just also had a question about in the third teaching verse 31 32 when he says men who always follow my thought trusting it without finding fault are free even by their actions, but those who find fault and fail to follow my thought know that they are lost fools deluded by every bit of knowledge. I was wondering like in comparison to like the fourth teaching about knowledge like you were a lot of it was like that you have to understand like in my understanding is you have to understand the knowledge of yourself in order to like fulfill action in the correct way. But like this is a little contradictory for me because it felt as though it was like following blindly without like the self- reflection of yourself and like I don't know how that's supposed to work.

Brad: Sure. That one I think I can respond to. So, there is there are these three paths, right? The path of knowledge, the path of devotion, and the path of action. And what what I think is non non-controversial through that Krishna advocates all three. In fact, he's not even, even though Arjuna's question in this chapter was like, you're saying that knowledge is better, the path of knowledge is better. And Krishna doesn't exactly dispute that, but he seems to frequently say any of these paths is best and the right path for you to follow is the is for you to kind of figure out for yourself, right? So there's one of these paths is going to be the right one for Ella to follow. And only Ella knows what that is. But here in these verses that you just read, he's clearly advocating for the path of devotion, right? So if you're devoted to God and devoted to the scriptures and you do what God says and do what the scriptures say and you're prayerful in your actions, then that's the path that you follow, right? And so don't follow the don't follow humans, right? Uh but follow follow my thought trusting in it, meaning, right, meaning God's words, right? So that's I think would be the path of devotion. But he's also mixing them all in, right? So he's he's also trying to I mean, he will frequently say that there's these three paths and you need to follow the path that's right for you, but ultimately, the paths aren't all that different, right? If and if you're following this path, it should actually lead to the same action as if you're following that other path. Yeah, I don't know who was first, but yeah, Lena.

Further Class Discussion (Connecting Chapters 3, 4, 5)

Student 17: Speaking of the idea of like everyone's own individual path and like what your duty is. I thought it was interesting in the fourth teaching in verse 23 where it says, when a man is unattached and free, his reason rooted in knowledge, acts only means sacrifice, his action fully dissolved. Cuz to me, acting in sacrifice, it doesn't necessarily mean giving up something, but more so like it said like losing the aspect of like your ego and being free from ego. And then like in our terms or in our translation, to me that idea of like sacrifice reminds me of like the ego is like selflessness. So like removing yourself from the equation and being able to like look at it kind of like impartially and unbiased and make a decision that's like rational and includes knowledge. But then it says the action fully dissolved. So then does it mean that the action is like no longer, like where does it go? What like what happens with it once you incorporate the idea of knowledge and sacrifice into what you're doing?

Brad: Excellent. I definitely have an answer to that. But I want to hear from other folks, but that's an excellent question, right? So, and excellent verse. Also, please feel free to especially our leaders take us to other chapters besides chapter three. Yeah, Jose, haven't hear you.

Student 9: Focusing on the teaching that we're focusing about. I'm just confused on Lord Krishna's definition of the word understanding because in line 40 it says the senses, mind and understanding are said to harbor desire, which means all these three adjectives are negative, correct? They harbor desire, which is what we do not want. However, in line 43, it says knowing the self beyond understanding, sustain the self with the self, which means that we have to, you know, provide ourselves with our own knowledge and it gives the word understanding a positive attribute instead of a negative one. So because later on it says use this to kill the enemy menacing you in the form of desire. So I'm just confused on how understanding it sometimes has a negative aspect and also a positive aspect. it could go both ways. Which way do you think it means towards like the positive of, you know, self-discovery, self understanding which is where you seek to desire or the opposite to harbor desire.

Brad: Yeah, really good question. So if we think back, into the first group of texts that we read at the beginning of the semester. One of them was the Nasadiya Sukta, which is the, it ended with, you know, some people know, you know, maybe the only the gods know or maybe they don't, right? And so there one of the things we talked about was that, knowledge, any knowledge requires both a knower and and understand, right? So both the knower and the knowledge. So there needs to be an ontic distinction between the knower and what is known, right? But there's a duality there, right? So there's, I mean that's implicit in that is, you know, non- duality. So you can't have knowledge unless there's both a knower and a known, but those can't be ontologically distinct from one another, right? So if they if one understands that, which is a high level of understanding, right? To understand epistemology and what I just explained, then the duality collapses in on itself, right? Then one realizes that the only distinction between knower and known is epistemic, not ontological, right? So then once one grasps that point, then one is able to understand the whole self and each fold, you know, right? within that self, right? So the team members as part of the team. And then so the duality between knower and known collapses. So this is why he's not saying that knowledge is a bad thing. He's saying, know the self beyond understanding, right? So understanding requires a duality between or distinction, ontic distinction between knower and known, but the self is beyond that distinction, right? The whole is more than its parts. Yeah? Okay, word, cool. Yeah, Justin.

Student 27: Then so if like correct action is defined as like sacrificial action towards your Dharma, uh, and it's like more important that you focus on your Dharma as opposed to like anyone else's Dharma. Yeah. How do you find out what your Dharma is?

Brad: Yeah. Excellent. So I would say, in in in large part, the answer to that question is by studying the Gita, right? So by, and not just studying the Gita, but by studying the scriptures and, doing all these things, right? So, so by understanding yourself and understanding the world and understanding the scriptures and following a teacher and those sort of things and listening to your heart, complex, right? It requires effort and work. But once, but the short answer, I guess, to the question is only you can know what that what the answer is, right? It's not just you sit around and you decide for yourself. You have to do the hard work of learning and figuring it out and discernment and that sort of stuff with a guide. But ultimately, the only person that can figure out what your Dharma is is you for sure. Yeah? Ola?

Student 36: I think that's pretty controversial though to the reading we read about Krishna telling Arjuna like your duty is to fight in war. Cuz you know, like if we're talking about each person's like finding their own duty, maybe his duty was more to his family and being like loyal to, you know what I mean? Like I think the fact that Krishna was like saying this is your duty and what you would do, kind of like restricts Arjuna's like

Brad: Right, but I mean Krishna also Krishna also cares about freedom and justice, right? And so if you're if your family is committing horrific acts of injustice, like you you do, I mean, Krishna is at least saying you have a responsibility to correct injustice even if it's your family members. Yeah.

Student 29: Mine is like unrelated, but I was talking about 42 in four and it says like men who know sacrifice expand toward the infinite spirit. Know that the source of them all is action and you will be free. So does that mean like for the other paths of action that like sacrifice is not possible, I guess? Or like what does that cuz I mean action is one path and then there's what is it? knowledge and devotion. I guess like how does that all like come together if one path is the root of sacrifice?

Brad: So, yeah, so many forms of sacrifice expand towards the infinite spirit. She the infinite word infinite spirit here is Brahman. So many forms of sacrifice expand towards Brahman. Know the source of all of them is action and you will be free. Sacrifice in knowledge is better than sacrifice with material objects. This totality of all action culminates in knowledge. So also the previous verse, men who eat remnants of sacrifice attain the timeless Brahman. And what is this world or the next with for a man without sacrifice? So, this coming back to maybe Lena's point too. So because we we have in these chapters frequently I don't know, some it's very confusing talking about action and inaction, right? So one who's wise sees action and inaction and inaction and action. What does all that mean? Right? Which is just getting onto your question about what exactly was your question again? Something about karma?

Student 17: action dissolving Yeah. your like sacrificing and using knowledge in order to act and the action dissolved.

Brad: Yeah, so, so how we understand karma or action in from the highest perspective, right? So matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed but in a state of constant transformation. So when I transform this substance, this you know, clay from one form to another, presumably I have some sort of final cause in mind, right? So I have, I don't know, let's say I have I don't know, I have some single malt and I want to be able, you know, to to consume it, so I need a cup, right? And so I form uh the I form a cup out of this stuff, right? So on the one hand, I'm creating a vessel for the single malt. On the other hand, I haven't created anything at all, right? So what I've taken is I've taken the matter that's there and I've transformed it because I have some sort of purpose or end in mind. But so I've taken an action, but I also haven't really taken an action, right? Because matter and energy have neither been created nor destroyed. They've just been transformed, right? And so the transformation is something transient, something temporary, right? But it's also transient and temporary for some purpose. So if I have some sort of ethical purpose, like to enact justice in the world, right? Or to liberate those who are oppressed, then that's what motivates my action, right? Or back to Luke's question about, you know, Lokasangraha. That's what so what motivates me is a desire to enact justice. And I enact justice by transforming the world around me, right? Which isn't creating the world, but it is recreating the world. And that entails some destruction, right? And it may sometimes, right? Even back to Jai's question about food, right? When I eat food in order to survive or even more than that, when I eat food in order to have the energy to enact justice in the world, then even that act of eating is destroying something unique, a unique manifestation of Brahman, right? So everything that I'm eating is Brahman, right? But so, but can we see that as a means toward some greater end, meaning, you know, justice or something like that. How'd I do? So we can see karma and akarma, action and inaction. And so it's a motivation, I'm not motivated by selfish ends, but motivated by Lokasangraha or whatever's greater for the whole, right? Or to put it in team terms, if I'm playing soccer, basketball, then I like want to, then I want to lessen myself, right? I want to decrease my own ego for the sake of the team, right? For the sake of the whole. So I'm detaching from my particular actions and how it affects me because I'm interested in the success of the whole soccer basketball team.

Student 3: Since that one focuses so much on like inaction and talking about how that's like not a path, like that's like not really an option, I guess.

Brad: I think, I mean this is just my interpretation there, but but I think what he's saying is that if you understand the the perspective from the highest heights, right? Once you understand the non- duality of existence, and you begin to see yourself as one with everything else, right? As part of something bigger, as, then, then you realize that you aren't so much taking actions for yourself, but everything becomes just a means of transforming what already is. So it is an act, I mean it is, maybe back to Molly's question, I mean or who who asked about the mental mental actions. So, so like it it is still an action, it is a physical action, but on the other hand, you know, what's that second law of thermodynamics, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So karma and akarma kind of cancel each other out, right? So what matters then is just justice or Dharma. So putting things bringing back restoring a balance or justice for the benefit of all, which sometimes means you've got to cut out cancerous, you know, yeah, whether it's cancerous thoughts or ideas or actual cancer or something like that or cancer in society or something. Good. Okay. Uh, so, yeah, well, let's let's push forward. So group leaders, have any other passages you want us to point to? Yeah.

Student 8: I got one. This kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier with like knowledge and killing knowledge. Yeah. So in uh second four and 33, so 433 says sacrifice in knowledge is better than sacrifice with material objects. Mhm. And I don't know, I thought that was kind of one weirdly written because it's sacrifice in knowledge versus sacrifice with material objects. Yeah. I was just a little bit uh curious what that really meant though. And what are you actually sacrificing?

Brad: Yeah, I mean I I will look at the the Sanskrit a little bit more closely. But I feel like so this translation, better than the sacrifice of material possession. So that's that's really the traditional understanding of karma, right? So putting rice into the fire, putting ghee into the fire, that really means performing those actual Vedic rituals, right? So better than that is the wisdom sacrifice is how he translates it. So Jnana Yagna. Oh, Jnana Yagna. So it's yeah, it's taking the Yagna, the Vedic rituals and putting it with Jnana. I mean, I think I don't want to interpret it, you know, for anybody, but I think one way to one way to look at it would be the answer I gave to Jose earlier that once one understands the non-dual relationship between knower and known, then that is a kind of sacrifice of the distinction between knower and known, which is also a sacrifice of one's ego or self, right? So I cease to become an individual knower and become a part of something bigger than my individual self, right? Yeah, but I still become I still have a body, I'm still embodied and I'm still an agent that can perform action in the world. I I don't know, that's my best uh that's my best attempt to sort of respond there. Yeah, Ella.

Student 36: I have a question about on the fifth teaching like sort of relating action and inaction. Yeah. Um he said like just in the beginning when explaining when men renounce painful this action. I was more like just more clarification on like the difference like is renunciation more like inaction, more like focusing on actions like out reward and then like discipline and action is like you just focusing on action or like what would you classify?

Brad: Yeah, I think you I think you kind of nailed it there. Yeah, so that action without concern for the reward, which the Gita calls Nishkama karma, which is just action without desire for the reward. is not action at all, right? So when Krishna says act without action, right? I mean he doesn't exactly say that, but that's the passage you're pointing to. He's not saying renounce action, but renounce the rewards of action. And if you renounce your attachment to the fruits of action and you just do what's right because it's right, and you don't worry so much about what happens as long as you're acting with intention and understanding that you're doing the right thing, then that's that's acting, it's a different kind of karma then, right? It's an acting with sacrificing your own reward, right? Or the fruits of those actions. That I think that's kind of what you said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Jose, last word.

Student 9: Yeah, going back to the fourth teaching, I really like Luke's point about seeing the various forms of sacrifice and discipline. In line 25 it says, some men discipline offer sacrifice only to gods, others sacrifice in the fire that is infinite spirit. So I think that I don't what Krishna is trying to say is that there's different ways of performing sacrifices, material offerings, sensory, breath control, fasting, many things. So each leads towards the path of spiritual purity, right? And freedom from the sins from this desires. So which which of these disciplines is superior to the rest? Which which of these disciplines leads towards the sacrifice goes beyond them. I don't they don't really give like a clear distinction between material offering, breath control, fasting, knowledge. Right. Which one do you think? I think it's personally knowledge, but I'm not too sure so

Closing Remarks

Brad: Okay, yeah, it's a great question. We're out of time. But let's pick up with that question or some related question next Tuesday. Yeah? We're see you all on Thursday. Thank you. Yeah.