This class session began with a brief meditation, followed by an engaging Jenga game played by the designated discussion leaders, serving as a practical example of *līlā* (play). After confirming attendance, the class delved into the first two chapters of the *Bhagavad Gītā*. The discussion explored Arjuna's profound internal conflict in Chapter 1 regarding fighting his kinsmen and teachers, weighing familial duty against his role as a warrior. Chapter 2 formed the core of the discussion, focusing on Krishna's counsel. Key themes included the nature of duty (*dharma*), the importance of action (*karma*) without attachment to its fruits, the concept of the eternal and indestructible self (*ātman*), the role of discipline and understanding, the different paths to liberation (*Karma Mārga*, *Jñāna Mārga*, *Bhakti Mārga*), and the need for emotional detachment and objectivity in fulfilling one's role. Students actively engaged, questioning the source of duty, the application of these teachings beyond war, and the relationship between the individual self and the ultimate reality (Brahman).
Brad: Okay. Howdy y'all. Shall we put screens away and get started?
Brad: Let's start with a little meditation. Try to close out all the noise. Literal and metaphorical.
[Meditation with bell sounds]
Brad: Let's take one breath together. Go ahead and breathe in. And let it out.
Brad: How, howdy, howdy, howdy. So, red letter day. Pun intended. We're starting the Bhagavad Gita. And unless something has changed, which if it's changed, that's fine, just let me know. But Andrique, Avery, Andrea, Georgia, Cameron, Eric, Lauren, and Drew are set to be our discussion leaders. Yeah? So I thought, you know, just cause it's a Tuesday, that it would be fun maybe to start with a game of Jenga, played by our discussion leaders.
Student 1: Yes!
Brad: No?
Student 2: Yes!
Brad: Just, just play for the sake of play.
Student 3: Don't lose.
Brad: It's Lila is both means and ends.
Brad: So yeah, come on, those folks, Let's get If you really don't want to, you can hand it off to somebody else, but let's come on, let's play a game of Jenga.
Student 4: Why is no one standing up?
Brad: I know, right? That's a good question. Come on, go.
[Students move to the front, set up Jenga, chatter]
Brad: Feel free, if you want.
[Student chatter and movement]
Student 5: Come on Georgia, represent.
[Student chatter]
Brad: Y'all go ahead. Whenever you want to.
[Students discuss rules/start playing]
Student 6: Are we doing like two hands are allowed?
Brad: Got to do one hand.
Student 6: You can switch hands?
Brad: You can switch hands, but only one hand at a time.
Student 6: You play with both hands?
Brad: Yeah.
Student 7: It's easier.
Student 8: No, no, no, you gotta play with one.
Brad: One hand. One hand at a time.
[Students continue playing Jenga, discussing moves]
Student 9: Avery adjusted it.
Student 10: Nice Eric, good job Eric.
[More Jenga playing chatter among students]
Brad: Yeah, Avery, go last.
[Student chatter]
Brad: Was playing with some folks yesterday and they said that some folks, some of them had the rule that if you touch it, you have to move that one.
Student 11: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brad: That's I feel like that's too much.
Student 11: Yeah?
Student 12: Got to be smart about the one you touch.
Brad: Okay, just feeling around. Okay, that's fair. I get that.
Student 13: Fiddling around means everyone fiddles around.
Student 14: That's what I'm saying. You gotta take the brick thing.
Brad: Okay. That makes sense.
[Students continue playing Jenga, strategizing, making moves]
Brad: Great play.
[Students continue playing]
Brad: I'm...
[Students play Jenga]
Brad: Nice.
[Student chatter]
Student 15: How long did the other class go for?
Brad: The other class, oh, you mean before? Not very long. They made it around like once and maybe one and a half. Definitely not around twice.
Student 16: I think we're just the better class.
[Students continue playing Jenga, tower gets wobbly, lots of tension and comments]
Brad: Wow.
[Student chatter]
Student 17: The next one's falling.
Student 18: This one's falling.
[More Jenga play, close calls]
Brad: Yeah.
Student 19: What?
[Tower falls. Students react loudly]
Brad: Bummer.
[Applause, chatter, students cleaning up and returning to seats]
Brad: Okay.
[Background chatter while Brad waits]
Brad: In terms of, in terms of attendance, we're missing Cameron, right?
Student 20: [unclear] represent.
Brad: And did anybody switch days with Cameron? Did he switch days with anybody? No? Justin? That's it. Yeah? Okay, cool.
Brad: Okay, so, yeah, let's dive into the Bhagavad Gita. Yeah, probably not a whole lot to say on chapter one, right? I don't know. Does anybody have any, any of our discussion leaders have anything on chapter one or should we dive into chapter two?
Brad: Yeah, Andrique.
Student 21: I mean, I feel it's like important to point out how it is like this internal conflict Arjuna has, like whether to still fight the war, like against his kinsmen. Yeah. Or, or just accept that he doesn't want to kill them. And he starts like mourning and like having a lot of debates with himself.
Brad: And what what is this debate over? That's right. Yeah, good, thank you. What what is this debate over? Yeah, Eric.
Student 22: The debate, the debate's over like whether he should fight against like people he knows, like his teachers, other family members. It's kind of like that ethical decision making for like if it's right, like no one will win. Yeah. Whoever wins like the war, they won't really win.
Brad: So, I mean, he's going out to fight the bad guys, right? And then he sees that they're not all bad guys. There's some good guys on the bad guy side. So, yeah. So then what do you do? Yeah, Lauren.
Student 23: One thing I wanted to point out was I thought it was really interesting how Bhishma, they described him as like the greatest of the other side, but they also described him as an aged grandfather and more like as like an educator. And I thought that was a very big difference to how we think of like a war or battle today and how it just shows like the significance of their values is very different than like what our definition of war is.
Brad: Mhm. Yeah, good. It's a little bit of a boomer on out there. Yeah, Bhishma, Bhishma is basically his archery teacher. So, so one of his teachers. Yeah, Ruby.
Student 24: It's also relevant to point out the familial connection in the first chapter, even though that Arjuna acknowledges that like the other side is evil. In section 37, he says like honor forbids us to kill our cousins, Dhritarashtra's sons, and how can we know happiness if we kill our own kinsmen? Because even though he says earlier that like people will harm them, there's also a sense of like honor and like desire to keep peace, but because it's familial.
Brad: Right. Yeah. So the the question isn't or not, are they good people, but, you know, I mean it's more complex. Yeah, it's more complex. Yeah, good. Yeah, Georgia.
Student 25: Yeah, I was just, I was going to say very similar things, but it seems like there's like a a big like, I feel like it it kind of seems as if like he's like weighing the pros and his cons in his head. Like he feels like, I guess like, I don't know, there's like this draw to war, but he's like trying to talk himself out of it is kind of what it seems and just like realizing what it would do, to like those familial ties. And then he also brings in friends too. It's like, like what happens when kill them.
Brad: Yeah. So, I mean, as you're pointing out, he's really focused on the the outcomes of this, right? So yeah, if we do this...
Student 25: Trying to like talk himself out of it almost.
Brad: Right, definitely, for sure. Definitely deeply conflicted. Yeah. Yeah, Avery.
Student 26: I feel like this also like really like introduces the like form of like duty that he talks about, like in verse 40, like he talks about how like there's a duty for his family and himself, but there's also like a duty for him to complete like his like battle and war. And I feel like that's what like really leads to like the second teaching, but like him realizing that like duty is like what he lives for and that's like the most important thing, but he's trying to balance like two different ones. Right. In which everyone's leaning towards one, but he almost feels like he's leaning towards the family one.
Brad: Because in real life, we have we sometimes have conflicting duties, right? And so here's clearly a case where he's got conflicting duties and he doesn't know how to weigh those two out. Yeah.
Student 27: For me it was a question. It was like, what determines someone's duty though? Like, is it, is it is Krishna determining just in your place in society or is there because I feel like they mentioned duty a couple of times, but then in the second verse, in the second chapter, it's completely referred to duty being him fighting in the battle. So it's like the duty for the family kind of like gets swept away after.
Brad: Really important question. Where, where does, yeah, who decides, how did you phrase it? Where does duty come from? Or who decides what...
Student 27: Who decides what your duty is?
Brad: Yeah. I think that is a key question wrestled with in the text. Do you have any answers so far on where that duty seems to come from? There could be multiple answers there. It may be part of the tension in there too. By the way, the the word duty, duty. Is Dharma. So the word that she's translating as duty. There's some really nice, you know, advantages to having every word translated, but there's some downsides too. So Yeah.
Student 27: Well, for me, I was interested in cuz they were talking how Krishna was advising him to like not focus on the results of the actions. Yeah. So what I was thinking is like maybe, well, at first I thought maybe that meant that there was like no, he didn't want ambition at all because like if you don't look at the results, like what is the point? So that led me a little bit to the idea of like maybe he does want, but it's like a more balanced approach to duty as well, thinking like, you have duty to yourself and your own fulfillment instead of like duty to other people because when he was like fighting on the war, he wasn't like having this duty of like, oh, like I don't want to do this because I'll be sad. It was more like I don't want to do this cuz I'm killing these people. So it's more like don't focus on that part and just focus on what that you're fulfilling the role you have.
Brad: Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah, Georgia.
Student 25: Kind of an answer to that question. I think it kind of like, I think it's like your duty is kind of internal, but it comes from like discernment because it says in 41 of chapter two, it says undiscerning men who delight in the tenants of ritual lore, utter words being concerning like there is nothing else. And then it goes on to say like driven by desire. So I think it's like like kind of like what Brad was saying, it's like you have to think about intentions too. But you can kind of get like, I think you can get more a lot more of like the I guess like like your supposed duty from like discernment and then also like with the help of teachers because I know that's like a big part of this.
Brad: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.
Student 28: I think this could also be something that we interpret using the two different perspectives. So like the Advaita perspective and then the Vishishtadvaita perspective. Good. Where it's like for the one that doesn't include God, we can think of our duties coming from ourselves and the self that is eternal and indestructible. Whereas in the other perspective, we might think that God is the one who gives us our duties and then we are the ones that fulfill that.
Brad: Yeah, good.
Brad: Yeah, Lauren.
Student 23: Another point they briefly touched on was how it could also result in like the intermixed intermixture of like caste. Yeah. And how your caste can give you your duty. And so they touched upon that in the first chapter, but I don't really remember them talking about it that much in the second. So I think that's interesting for how does, how does like Krishna explain that one? Is it like, is it your caste that does give you your duty? And then how is that resolved like if you have feelings towards your caste or feelings towards your family, like how do they all mesh together?
Brad: Yeah, yeah, really, really important observation then that Arjuna is very concerned about caste and Arjuna is very concerned that, you know, when the family is ruined and when you go to civil war, then, you know, basically it's mostly the men that are fighting, the men are going to get killed and then, you know, men on both sides are going to get killed and then you're going to have, you know, intermixing and all that kind of stuff. And this is something that Arjuna is very concerned about, but Krishna doesn't seem to be concerned about that at all, right? Krishna's like, that's not even something you should be worrying about.
Brad: Yeah, Drew.
Student 29: I thought it was interesting how like leading up to the battle, like there's only really like one side of it like talked about for the most part, like one side talking like Krishna's side like discusses like, oh, like if you kill, you're like evil and like you'll lose joy, but the other side that's kind of that that is like dead set on going to battle is also like probably is like going to experience the same things like maybe like going to hell if they like lose the battle or if they like engage like these evil actions, but that's not really like touched on.
Brad: Okay. Good.
Brad: Yeah, Horhe.
Student 30: I just have a question because I found it super cool. So in the first reading, like everybody seems to be blowing a conch and like these there's like these conches that come from like fighting demons and something. So like, is there a hidden meaning on that? Like is there like a trophy or something?
Brad: I mean, there there're definitely symbolic meanings in a lot of the names that are being used and the those sort of things. Is that what you're asking?
Student 30: Yeah, I mean like every army is like blowing a different conch. So like the conch about like victory and different gods or something.
Brad: Yeah. I mean, I think that...
Student 30: Is that like super important to like the later readings?
Brad: I don't think it it's something we need to worry about too much right now. Like I said the other day that the only significance for us is just they're ready to go to fight. They're ready to go to war, right? So they're all lined up blowing their conscious saying, hey, we're ready to go. There there is some some allegorical symbolism that's coming through in a lot of the names, but we'd have to like do super deep dive into the Sanskrit to get any progress there and I've done some of it and I don't know that it's that fruitful of a thing. But yeah.
Brad: Good question though. Others?
Brad: Shall we point to particular verses from chapter two?
Brad: Yeah, George.
Student 31: I think passage 37, it talks about if you are killed, you win heaven, if you triumph, you enjoy the earth. Therefore, Arjuna stand up and resolve to fight the battle. Honestly, it kind of reminds me of like Vikings and like the idea of Valhalla and like how their perfect way of dying is dying in battle, so that just motivated a lot of people to fight. I just think it's so interesting how in two totally distinct like areas and times of the world that they kind of had similar ideas and it's just something I didn't expect reading this.
Brad: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, so, in order to have a society, you have to have military, don't you? You have to have people that are going to protect, you know, people that are going to protect innocent people from bad people, right? And there tends to be a celebration of folks like that that that are heroic and valorous and so yeah, good.
Brad: Yeah, Avery.
Student 26: I think the the verse that George was looking at also like puts an interesting perspective between Arjuna and Krishna on their views because Krishna's really like saying like this is like a selfless action like like dying in like war and like going into heaven and like you would have died anyway, like comparing that, but then Arjuna said like was trying to say that like there's no, what did I say? Like in battle, like there's no, there's like no like victory doesn't always mean peace. Like even though that like like they're saying like it's a selfless action, like what Krishna was saying, like that still doesn't mean that there isn't like unpeacefulness with the dying of the people, which I feel like is like a distinction between their views that Krishna never like really addresses.
Brad: Okay.
Student 31: Also like part of that I think is, I think Krishna is viewing, I guess, life or existence in terms of like an infinite kind of thing. He's like saying you can always be reborn. Like this the the soul or the self is never really dead, which is why he's justifying killing and justifying putting like the long term, like everyone's going to be reborn eventually, so this doesn't really matter. But I think Arjuna is viewing it as more like this life is all we have and he's like, why would I want to kill in this life if it's the only one I have. So it's just a different viewpoint of like, I guess rebirth, reincarnation and like their opinions on that.
Brad: Yeah, okay, good. Yeah. Krishna's definitely got a wider scope of concern, right? Yeah. Yeah, Lauren.
Student 23: Yeah, just to add on to that when I was reading it, I was really wondering what Krishna could say like in defense of this battle and everything. And I just thought that that part was very important because it shows that yeah, what Krishna's perspective is is like death is not like the end of everything. Like death, you're going to have, you're going to continue going and it's almost like by completing your duty and by killing, you're getting closer to the non-existence anymore. So it's kind of the opposite of like what Arjuna is saying. Arjuna's worried about killing other people and stopping life, but Krishna is being like, if you kill and you follow your duty, like that's your job and you'll eventually get to the non-existence.
Brad: Somebody's got to do this job and it's you. It's your job, right? Yeah. Yeah, Ruby. Oh no, Eric, yes sir.
Student 22: Oh, I think adding on to that, like how he gives the other side his army. I think that adds on to like the idea that death doesn't matter and like he wants it to be you know, like a bigger battle, a bloodier battle because the emphasis on like like the fight doesn't matter. It's about like your sacred duty or like your life won't matter because it's like reincarnation. So which is I think that's a good connection for why he does give all the other side.
Brad: Yeah. Okay, Ruby.
Student 24: I was I took it a different way and thought it was a more God-like perspective and soulful approach because Krishna, isn't he like an incarnation of Vishnu, who is the God that sustains the universe and is between Brahma, the creator and Shiva, the destroyer. So then he would be sustaining like he's like anticipating the destroyer and then saying that like everything is never ending, like we're all reborn and so therefore that time in between is like what matters more than the killing or the rebirth. He's like very much speaking to his like specialty or perspective and like it's something that Arjuna doesn't quite have a grasp on because he's very human. And so it's a stark comparison and like he can't quite get to that same level while he's explaining this whole motivation like this entire page. Yeah. And I think that that's really interesting speaks to the depth of the text and Krishna's like motivation.
Brad: Great, great. Thank you. Yeah, Andrique.
Student 30: Yeah. The way I viewed it is that they both each have a different definition of peace. Mhm. Like cuz like for Krishna, you're not able to have peace if you don't have discipline in 966. It says like without discipline, you get no understanding of inner power. Without inner power, there is no peace. Without peace, there is no joy. And in contrast, like Arjuna clearly like says he would not be able to live in peace knowing he killed his kinsmen. Mhm. So I just think it's like very interesting the different perspectives.
Brad: Mhm. Yeah, good. Great, great passages there. Yeah, Ella.
Student 27: Also the idea that it's also interesting is like how killing someone like their body doesn't mean killing, but if you kill their soul, that means like and then sorry, and then the idea that you can't kill their soul. So it's like he's kind of like justifying like, hey, you're killing, but their soul is still alive, so it's not considered as killing. It says like 17 and 18, it's when it goes, our bodies are known to end, but the embodied self is enduring, indestructible and immeasurable. Then it goes on to say, he who thinks this self is a killer and he who thinks it's killed, both fail to understand it does not kill nor is it killed. Mhm. So that that's like pretty interesting like being like he's not really dying, like his soul is still alive, so you're not committing any kind of like sin you're thinking.
Brad: Right. Cuz who you are is this union of matter and spirit and the death of this person doesn't end the matter or the spirit, that both continue on, right? But I don't know, something's lost, isn't it? Yeah? I mean, cuz it's as we've emphasized all semester, the so Brahman has manifests as Ollats and has never manifested as Ollats before, never will again, right? So there's something in particular about Ollats as this very particular manifestation of Brahman that's unique. And then so how can we pretend how can Krishna claim that there's nothing special there, right? Yeah. Yeah, good. Yeah, Ruby.
Student 24: Kind of going off of that point, like I see the conflict that Arjuna kind of has with Krishna's motivation or argument. But when Krishna says be intent on action, not on the fruits of action, avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction, it's like placing the emphasis on the actual action, but in this case, it would be Arjuna having to kill people on the other side, which is kind of the dilemma that he's having. And so Krishna kind of tries to explain it as like, no, you're not actually killing them. But I feel like it's hard to kind of get out of that mindset where it's like we're getting rid of this person, this particular person.
Brad: Cuz we are, right? I mean it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good. Thanks. Yeah, Leana.
Student 37: I kind of wonder if that's more of a like coping mechanism for like Krishna or if that's like just genuinely like believe like always like been like consistent throughout life or if that's more of a like going through war, there's you kind of have to justify it in some way and that's how he justifies it. So I'm like curious to know if that was kind of like his constant in his life like growing up or if that's just like something he's sort of coming to like claim now.
Brad: You mean Krishna? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. Yeah. Yeah, Drew.
Student 29: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting the quote where it's like, be intent on action and Krishna is saying that. I'm not sure what president, I think it was Theodore Roosevelt who was like, the worst thing you could do is nothing, you know, in a certain situation. I sort of get the vibe from these couple chapters where it's like Krishna's pushing Arjuna like, do something. Don't just like dwell, you know, and get sad because that's not going to move the ball forward.
Brad: Yeah, that's a really, really, really important observation. Yeah, Gil.
Student 31: Also it says in in verse 50, it says disciplined by understanding and I guess I interpret understanding as like the understanding of like the idea that everyone is sort of immortal and and will be reborn. But my question is like, is that the correct definition of discipline? Because like under that definition like, yeah, it wouldn't matter if you kill people because then it says wouldn't abandon both good and evil deeds. So like, I guess in that respect like morality means nothing. And I just don't understand like how that's his definition of discipline and like where that comes from. And if that's like the correct way of viewing it.
Brad: So verse 50? I mean, so it says disciplined by understanding. Yeah. Um...
Student 31: Can I interpret understanding as like the understanding of everyone's ability to be reborn and embodied?
Brad: Or am I missing that? No, I mean it could be. Yeah. The the pre let's read that little section there. So we've got verse 47, be intent on action, not on the fruits of action, avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction. Perform actions firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment, be impartial to failure and success. This equanimity is called discipline. Action, Arjuna, action is far inferior to the discipline of understanding. So seek refuge in understanding. Pitiful are men drawn by the fruits of action, disciplined by understanding, one understands both good and evil deeds. So arm yourself for discipline. Discipline is skill in actions. I guess it keeps going. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruits fruit born of action, freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay.
Brad: Let me toss in a little bit of information here. It might shed some more light on this. So I mentioned previously this semester that there's three primary paths to liberation, right? Karma Marga, the path of action, Jnana Marga, the path of knowledge, and Bhakti Marga, the path of devotion, right? The Gita the Gita addresses all three of these frequently, very frequently. And absolutely 100% advocates all three. I don't think there's tons of people that would, there's tons of theologians, you know, Hindu theologians that would say it emphasizes this one over that one, but it's they're all three there for sure. And I think they're all three in these in this little group of of verses that we just read. So the discipline, so we haven't really talked very much about Karma Marga. Obviously we've talked a lot more about Jnana Marga. Advaita Vedanta is that Jnana Marga, the path of knowledge, the path of right? So understanding the non-duality of Brahman and Atman would be to understand that there's no real difference between George and me, right? So get rid of that sort of selfish, egotistical mindset and move more towards, you know, the team team sort of mindset, right? So, I don't want just what's best for me or just what's best for George. I want what's best for the flourishing and of all of us, right? Now, if that if Avery comes in and she's, you know, a tyrant and she's just like, you know, then we got to do something about that. We can't we just sit around and let Avery beat up on everybody, right? That doesn't necessarily mean we have to kill Avery. There's going to be some some middle ground between just letting Avery run a muck and right? You know what I'm saying?
Brad: So, sorry, I got off track there. I was imagining Avery going around just hitting everybody. It's like a it's like a duck duck go that got way out of hand. And, so discipline, right? So Karma Marga, one of the benefit or one of the the reasoning behind Karma Marga, is by performing these karmas, one becomes the kind of person that performs the karmas and in order to perform the karmas well, you have to be a very, very disciplined person. You have to it's the bar it's it's a very high, you know, cost of admission, you could say to Karma Marga. You have to, you know, step one is memorize the entire Veda, right? In Sanskrit and then go from there. So, so becoming the kind of person that is able to perform these karmas means becoming somebody who's very, very disciplined, who's disciplined in reading the scriptures, disciplined and performing what they say and those kind of things, right? If you've studied Aristotle, if the then it might help a little bit. Aristotle and like Nicomachean ethics, which you might have read for one of your other classes. Aristotle had a very similar notion of ethics, which is by doing small actions that are good, by doing small good actions, making your bed when you get out of, you know, making your bed every morning and then just, you know what I mean? By doing lots of small good actions, you become the kind of person that does good actions, right? And the more you practice that, then the more natural it is, the more sort of effortless those good actions become because you're just in the habit, right? In Sanskrit, this is referred to as karma, which means action and samskara, which is like the trace of the action, right? So it's like if I, let's say, let's say I smoke cigarettes, right? Then like if I smoke a cigarette, that's a karma, right? And it has a samskara, which is, I mean, it's going to, you know, if I keep smoking cigarettes, then it'll make me crave those, right? And also get in the habit of doing it. Doesn't mean that I don't have the power to say no to the next cigarette, but, you know, if I smoke, you know, a pack a day for a year, then it becomes really hard not to smoke, right? Because that because I've gotten in the habit of it and I've gotten habituated to it. Flip that just, you know, take the exact same example, but, you know, to put it on a good side. So if I make small good actions, then I become the kind of person that makes the right? So I think that's part of what's going on here in terms of discipline. We can take that discipline to mean those lots of small good actions, then make you the kind of person that does good actions. Therefore, if you make your bed every morning and you do all those small little things that are basically inconsequential, then when you get in a situation like where Arjuna is, you're just so used to doing the right thing that you don't have to, you don't fall into the situation where Arjuna is in, which is not knowing how to do, right? So it's almost like, doing that discipline without reflection, without without any need for even thinking. It just becomes automatic. On the understanding of it, you could take the same, maybe the outcome, maybe the ethics, maybe the action is the same, but the reasoning that gets you there is different, right? And so if you understand that the the purpose of life is the is Lila or the flourishing, the wellbeing of all beings, then, you know, when Avery comes in and starts getting carried away with the duck duck go, then we could be like, you know, hey, this isn't the best for, you know what I'm saying? Maybe, kind of, there's terrible examples, but so, so yeah, so we've got the, that's at least two of the three paths and then the third one, maybe in verse 61. So just a couple of verses after that, we see controlling them all, meaning the senses. So even when a man of, sorry, verse 60, even when a man of wisdom tries to control these senses, the bewildering senses attack his mind with violence, controlling them all, meaning the senses, with discipline, he should focus on me. So there we've got the bhakti, right? So by focusing on God, with senses under control, then it's more there like being soft like the clay, pliable, right? So being intent on God, allowing yourself to be molded or shaped, would be the would be the bhakti side of it. So, yeah, hopefully that helped a little bit. But keep an eye out for all three of those paths, you know, throughout the our reading of text. Questions about that or comments that take us to a different verse? Anybody have a verse that you'd like to draw our attention to?
Brad: Yeah, Ella.
Student 27: It's still on that page, but I guess like 64 on, but starting with but a man of inner strength whose senses experience objects without attraction and hatred and self-control finds serenity. Mhm. I think like continuing this like conversation of discipline is like really interesting because like what does it mean in terms of like like to me like the questions of like emotions start to come into play now because I feel like as like I've been reading these next couple of verses, it seems a lot like the controlling of your emotions is like a form of discipline, like not letting them get out of control. Yeah. But like I just wonder like the context of that like to a person. Like especially like a man in this context.
Brad: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, Avery.
Student 26: I feel like also going off of that, like Krishna like talks about like like detachment like from like the intention of like cuz like he he says like know your action, but more of like the like detachment from like the intention of the action for Arjuna, like when he was like worried about like, oh like I'm going against my family duty. Like I feel like Krishna like uses that as like kind of like a way to like be like it's okay, like just like don't focus on like that desire or that and just detach yourself from it sort of like from the emotions of what Ella was saying.
Brad: Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, Georgia.
Student 25: Yeah, I guess this kind of, I guess this really only makes sense, I mean, I'm sure there's other cases where it makes sense, but like in the in concept of like war, like if you think about it like in today's like people like that they really do kind of have to put their emotions aside and not think about too much about what they're doing. But what I struggle with is how this would like apply to like other situations that like aren't so drastic because I think like I feel like leading with your emotions, like I feel like that makes me a better person. Like I guess in terms but like I don't know how this would like be put into a different situation. I guess it makes sense for war, but like I don't know what would like Krishna say about other situation.
Brad: Right, cuz I mean what you're saying is that emotions emotions have a role to play too, right? Emotions aren't something we want to totally get rid of. Yeah, Jose and then Andrea.
Student 32: Yeah, so to add on to that about war and our desires, I found this line in line 71 it says, when he renounces all desires and acts without craving, possessiveness or egoty, he finds peace. So I think what this line is trying to say is that like sure you can use your emotions, but you have to like be as objective as possible because Yeah. some war is unfair and sometimes you can't always be fair to win. So because the other party will also not be fair. So I think that's what he's trying to convey in this line.
Brad: Yeah, I think I think that's right. I mean, I think trying to encourage Arjuna to be as objective as possible, to see things without attraction and hatred, without craving and possessiveness, but just sort of like, hey, here's some people that are doing bad things. You're your job, your duty is to, you know, be the be the policeman, be the, right, person who stops bad people from doing bad things, do that without, yeah, objectively as possible. I think that's right. Yeah, Andrea.
Student 33: Yeah, so I was going to point out the same line because it really reminded me of the Upanishad that we had read where it talked about the different states and how they kind of also introduced this idea of desire and the third state where we let go of all of our desires and are free to kind of be in the state of peace. And I think it kind of also goes into the idea of individuality where it's like we also have to remember that we are a part of this team and that we all have this duty to fulfill for the whole self. And I think it kind of introducing desire, I think makes Krishna's argument make a little bit more sense just because especially going back to the idea of action and like not focusing on the outcome. I think Arjuna kind of falls into this idea that his desire is to please the other people around him and to make sure that they're okay instead of his desire to fulfill his duty. So I think that's kind of where he's falling into.
Brad: Great. Yeah, Jaden.
Student 34: Going back to what Ella was saying about like how do we like apply this to something a little bit less extreme like war. When in 55 when it says in serenity, all sorrows dissolve, his reason becomes serene, his understanding sure. I kind of like thinking about like discernment over like your your mind. I think it's very applicable even for something that's not war, but just like your day-to-day like individual person as like your mind has things like anxiety and things that can maybe inhibit your just actions we were talking about. And I thought it just made a lot of sense of like this idea of like self-control or how it says like discipline. But it says no understanding of like his your inner power. And then all relating towards like as an individual finding peace and finding joy, which I think made a lot of sense to me and just then you might be like better fit to go about daily tasks that aren't as extreme as war, but maybe just like social relationships or really a lot of different things.
Brad: Yeah, I think it's really important important point that yeah, this isn't this isn't just preparing us for when we're in the situation that Arjuna's in because probably never going to be. But but really is yeah, it's intended to say something about the everyday and those decisions that we make every day. So I think that's great that you're thinking in that direction. Yeah.
Student 35: Also essentially using this way of thought, it's kind of like the milk and yogurt example in order for like one it's like almost like a transferring of like one form of life to another where like in order for like one thing to start existing, another thing has to not exist. So just like it's a transferring of energy or like a transferring of one thing to another.
Brad: Absolutely. Yep. Or changing form, changing shape, right? So to follow the cancer analogy, like the cancer that I cut out, it doesn't cease to exist, right? Just transforms into some other form, right? Yeah, Horhe.
Student 36: So if your soul like never dies and it doesn't matter because you keep coming back. That's That's true, right? In the reading, like you keep coming to earth, right? Then why would it matter if why why is the question risen that whether you go to heaven or hell if your soul never leaves the earth and it doesn't matter if you die. Why why is that even taken into consideration?
Brad: Why why have and hell brought in? Uh-huh. Yeah. If essentially doesn't matter. So, so heaven and hell in in most Hindu traditions that that describe them, they're fully temporary places. So if you, you know, if you perform good actions in life, then you're rewarded in heaven and how long and how good depends on how long, how much good you did, right? So like it's there isn't a notion that you go to heaven and you're there forever and ever and ever or you go to hell forever and ever and ever. So it's more that you so if you're somebody who does good actions, then you're rewarded for that on a temporary basis, but then the self the self of all beings continues. Yeah.
Student 36: Then you become something else, so it wouldn't matter what happened in the past.
Brad: Because you said Oh, I'm trying to remember the specific word you said. like, for example, if Ollats dies, then we're losing it. Oh. That that's what you said.
Brad: We're losing what? Yeah.
Student 36: It's never coming back. Right. So it's never coming back and what happened, it's never coming back, then why would it matter?
Brad: Yeah, I think that's a really important question. And I think it's a really important question. At the end of the day, it's up to you to answer, right? But but I think maybe one way to approach it, would be why did Brahman become Ollats, right? Or why is Ollats becoming Ollats because Ollats is still in process, right? In progress and shaping herself and being shaped by everyone around. So then so the question wouldn't be why does it matter that this person is alive or dead, what would matter is like what what should Ollats do right now, right? Why is Ollats or Brad here and now, right? So why did Brahman need to take this form here and now, right? Does that make sense? So then we're back to duty, ethics, and responsibility, but not in terms of like, oh, where am I going to be four lives, 400 years from now or whatever, but instead, what am I called to do here and now in a world where injustice is very real, right? So, the very real injustice that's around me, do I have some sort of responsibility to that? Yeah?
Student 36: Sure.
Student 27: I feel like another lesson might also took is like not applying certain events to other situations when when I'm reading this because I feel like when I start thinking like what would have he said in another context, then I'm like it's I'm like taking out the focus. I don't think like we have to read it because I had the same question at the beginning of the discussion as he had about the good and bad. But then I think of it more like metaphorically like what's the underlying reason why he's saying all of this and not like if he says this now, this means that maybe in another type of situation he would have said this because it's like they're completely different, you know? So like reading it just based on the text and the specific event focusing on that.
Brad: Yeah. Okay, good. Well, I feel like this I feel like this is really good first dive into the Bhagavad Gita. And thank you to our discussion leaders and everybody clear about who's discussion leader on Thursday? Want to do? All right, word. See you then.
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